New and not thrilled

[Aesculapius]

Hello 

I just graduated, obtained my NREMT and state lisense, and I absolutely hate the state of the civilian EMS Industry. I did this to get experience and make decent money while I go through school to become a doctor, and I regret the decision.

The pay is garbage, I make more waiting tables, and the insurance companies have the industry by the balls.

A private company hired me, put me through orientation, signed me up for benefits and then called me three days later to tell me their insurance company refused to ensure me as a driver. That is not professional behavior for a medical institution, and it is disgraceful that the insurance companies in this country have the power to dictate buisiness relations with any health care institution. 

I have nothing serious on my driving record, I pay 30 bucks a month for car insurance. I have never had a dui or dwi because I don't drink and drive, my cousins uncle was put in a coma and died in my uncle's arms because of some scum bag drunk driver. It left quite an impression on me. 

We should have professional drivers and let medical professionals focus on actual medicine. The civilian EMS world is completely backwards.

I'm considering joining the military as a medic, where I can be an actual medic not a driver, or working in another field until I am ready for my residency program. Still I may take a hospital job if the pay is worth it. 

If there are enough people in EMS who are willing to fight for change we can work with unions and lobby groups to pass new laws that will secure better pay and refine our job description.

However browsing on a few EMS forums I see allot of complacency, and suck it up attitudes, and even people who think we should just do this out the goodness of our hearts.... First and foremost we are Medical Professionals, secondly there are allot veterans in EMS who risked their lives for their country, and third we litterally save peoples lives on certain calls. 

EMS deserves respect, pay that reflects our invaluable service to society, and being able to focuse on medicine not being expected to double as a driver. 

 

How many people agree and are willing to fight for our industry?

 

Edited March 15, 2016 by Asclapius
Clarity

[paramedicmike]

Niceties first.

Welcome to the City.  You will meet a wide variety of field and hospital based medical providers here.  We have field providers young and old, new and experienced.  We have hospital based providers with field experience who have decided to take their education and talents to the next level.

Congratulations on completing the first step in what I hope will be a long, productive and fruitful EMS and medical career.

Moving on.

Who is Asclapius?  Do you mean Asclepius?  A typo?  An inattentive error by someone who should probably know better given your stated aspirations?

 

...and I absolutely hate the state of the civilian EMS Industry. I did thi

s to get experience and make decent money while I go through school to become a doctor, and I regret the decision.

 It's true.  Civilian EMS could use some improvement.  However, if you are unhappy with where you are in terms of pay and experience then perhaps you should have researched the industry a little more thoroughly.  Poor pay, questionable employers and more aren't a secret either within or outside of EMS.  This is not new information and has been widely known and easily researched for years.

Please accept this next comment in the spirit in which it is intended.  Presenting yourself as an interloper, specifically "... I only did this to get to destination <x>..." will not win you friends within the EMS community.  We all have goals and aspirations.  Making disparaging comments about a field you failed to thoroughly research while announcing yourself as little more than a tourist smacks of poor professionalism at best.

 

The pay is garbage, I make more waiting tables, and the insurance companies have the industry by the balls.

So go wait tables.  EMS pay is not some dirty little secret.  EMTs are a dime a dozen.  One of the most basic free market economic principles is at play here: supply and demand.

If you think insurance companies are a problem now within EMS wait until you are a practicing physician.  It gets even worse.

 

A private company hired me, put me through orientation, signed me up for benefits and then called me three days later to tell me their insurance company refused to ensure me as a driver. That is not professional behavior for a medical institution, and it is disgraceful that the insurance companies in this country have the power to dictate buisiness relations with any health care institution.

Based on your presentation I'm inclined to think your lack of insurability may be more age related than anything else.  Perhaps they are trying to ensure you are of a reasonable age by industry standards to be entrusted with a vehicle like an ambulance.

Your naivete with regards to insurance companies and their influence on business practices is interesting.  Why, exactly, are you so shocked by this?

Edited March 16, 2016 by paramedicmike

[paramedicmike]

For some reason the formatting in my above reply was corrupted and not correctable.  For the ease of reading I've amended it here.

I have nothing serious on my driving record, I pay 30 bucks a month for car insurance. I have never had a dui or dwi because I don't drink and drive, my cousins uncle was put in a coma and died in my uncle's arms because of some scum bag drunk driver. It left quite an impression on me.

[/quote]

How old are you?

We should have professional drivers and let medical professionals focus on actual medicine. The civilian EMS world is completely backwards.

Are you hung up on the driving aspect of EMS because you were deemed not insurable?

I'm considering joining the military as a medic, where I can be an actual medic not a driver, or working in another field until I am ready for my residency program. Still I may take a hospital job if the pay is worth it.

[/quote]

Please research military MOS responsibilities a little more thoroughly.  You may be surprised.

If there are enough people in EMS who are willing to fight for change we can work with unions and lobby groups to pass new laws that will secure better pay and refine our job description.

Do you honestly think there are no unions involved in EMS?  What if I told you one of the biggest impediments to EMS growth was a union?  Again, please research accordingly.

However browsing on a few EMS forums I see allot of complacency, and suck it up attitudes, and even people who think we should just do this out the goodness of our hearts....

How is complacency allotted?  Are some allotted more complacency than others?  Are you aware that there are volunteer EMS that do, in fact, provide the services out of the goodness of their hearts?  Again, this is another topic altogether.  You will find discussion on this here on this site.

First and foremost we are Medical Professionals, secondly there are allot veterans in EMS who risked their lives for their country, and third we litterally save peoples lives on certain calls.

Points one and two, as well as two and three, are non sequitur.  Also, what, specifically, have veterans been allotted?

EMS deserves respect, pay that reflects our invaluable service to society, and being able to focuse on medicine not being expected to double as a driver.

Respect needs to be earned.  Until we as providers earn that respect, until the industry requires university level entry level requirements to support our place within the field of medicine, EMS will continue to lack the respect that many who demand it have never earned.

How many people agree and are willing to fight for our industry?[/quote]

There is more than one educator on this site who has been active in promoting educational standards.  Please learn your audience before you show up and start lecturing us.

 

Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt.  After your first post you have no where to go but up.  The ball is in your court.  How will you play it?

What the hell?  I'm not entirely sure why the formatting is shot.  I'm not playing with it any more.

 

[Aesculapius]

 

So basically everyone who replied disagrees with me.

I'm not surprised, if more people in EMS agreed than we would have stronger unions and low pay rates would not be such a problem. 

[Aesculapius]

For some reason the formatting in my above reply was corrupted and not correctable.  For the ease of reading I've amended it here.

 

Are you hung up on the driving aspect of EMS because you were deemed not insurable?

 

Do you honestly think there are no unions involved in EMS?  What if I told you one of the biggest impediments to EMS growth was a union?  Again, please research accordingly.

 

How is complacency allotted?  Are some allotted more complacency than others?  Are you aware that there are volunteer EMS that do, in fact, provide the services out of the goodness of their hearts?  Again, this is another topic altogether.  You will find discussion on this here on this site.

 

Points one and two, as well as two and three, are non sequitur.  Also, what, specifically, have veterans been allotted?

 

Respect needs to be earned.  Until we as providers earn that respect, until the industry requires university level entry level requirements to support our place within the field of medicine, EMS will continue to lack the respect that many who demand it have never earned.

 

What the hell?  I'm not entirely sure why the formatting is shot.  I'm not playing with it any more.

 

* I never wanted to drive the ambulance to begin with, however I was willing to do it as part of the job,  now that some insurance company says I can't drive I am even more upset about it... and I absolutely will drive an Ambulance to prove them wrong, and I absolutely will also be involved in whatever politics I have to in order to draft bills that mandate proffessional drivers for paid Ambulance service. 

And when I am a six figure Doctor I will own an EMS Company and will treat our EMT and Paramedics with the highest respect, and we will have professional drivers who's sole job is to drive, and if my bills don't become law well that just means my company will be pioneering new ground. 

 

I Am In It To Win It. 

I may have some insurance company in my way today but I'm the long run I will not be defeated by anyone. I am enamored with a level of determination that is as uncommon as it is unyeilding. 

 

* I know there are multiple Unions and Associations involved in EMS, I assume they are not very strong and not very united and that a lack of strong solidarty exists. 

 

Your statement about unions is merely an opinion. 

My opinion is Unions are the reason that children aren't mining coal and why my Grandfather is living a good retirement as a former steel worker. 

Which is of course merely my opinion, once could also say my Grandfather doesn't waste money on frivolity. 

 

* From what I understand the volunteer services are mostly in towns that don't have a large enough populace for the tax revenues to allot for a paid Fire Department or EMS service. 

If the federal and state governments implemented and maintained half the infrastructure that should be in place those services could be Paid. 

 

* Having this or that ammount of hoops to jump through and this or that years of University to get into the field is not a valid measure of Respect. 

Patient x may not be alive any more because a ParaMedic gave him nitro-glycerine, EMT y gave him baby aspirin and EMT z monitored his Electro Cardiogram, and now his wife isn't a widow, and any children they May or may not have still have a father. 

And that is just one example of why EMS Deserves Respect. 

Yes that man may not have made it much longer if we dropped him off at home, instead of the Emergency Department where a Doctor and Nurses(who studied longer took over patient care, but those hospital personnel could not take care of their other patients if they had to play double duty as first responders. 

 

Yes they deserve more pay than us(and more than they currently make) but we still deserve allot more than what I've been offered so far and heard and read of so far. 

 

 

[Aesculapius]

Niceties first.

Welcome to the City.  You will meet a wide variety of field and hospital based medical providers here.  We have field providers young and old, new and experienced.  We have hospital based providers with field experience who have decided to take their education and talents to the next level.

Congratulations on completing the first step in what I hope will be a long, productive and fruitful EMS and medical career.

Moving on.

Who is Asclapius?  Do you mean Asclepius?  A typo?  An inattentive error by someone who should probably know better given your stated aspirations?

 

 It's true.  Civilian EMS could use some improvement.  However, if you are unhappy with where you are in terms of pay and experience then perhaps you should have researched the industry a little more thoroughly.  Poor pay, questionable employers and more aren't a secret either within or outside of EMS.  This is not new information and has been widely known and easily researched for years.

Please accept this next comment in the spirit in which it is intended.  Presenting yourself as an interloper, specifically "... I only did this to get to destination <x>..." will not win you friends within the EMS community.  We all have goals and aspirations.  Making disparaging comments about a field you failed to thoroughly research while announcing yourself as little more than a tourist smacks of poor professionalism at best.

 

So go wait tables.  EMS pay is not some dirty little secret.  EMTs are a dime a dozen.  One of the most basic free market economic principles is at play here: supply and demand.

If you think insurance companies are a problem now within EMS wait until you are a practicing physician.  It gets even worse.

 

Based on your presentation I'm inclined to think your lack of insurability may be more age related than anything else.  Perhaps they are trying to ensure you are of a reasonable age by industry standards to be entrusted with a vehicle like an ambulance.

Your naivete with regards to insurance companies and their influence on business practices is interesting.  Why, exactly, are you so shocked by this?

Thank You, I am glad there are forums to discuss EMS with other professionals. 

 

*My indictment of the current state of civilian EMS is not a ccrtiticsim of EMT's.

It is an criticism of the Status Quo, the buisiness practices of the companies involved, the insurance companies, and society as a whole for the economic conditions, complacency, and lack of gratitude expressed by the inadequate monetary value exchange for services rendered, which all compound together to resulting effect of the low pay and other issues for EMS Personnel. 

 

*Yes I did choose to do this as part of my larger career path, as several of the people I have met in EMS have also expressed to me, again this is not an insult to my fellow EMS Personnel, it is simply a statement of my career path. 

Perhaps my wording was misleading, I am at the moment extremely frustrated and angry. That anger will be channeled into determination to achieve further, attain new certifications and qualifications, and gainful employment in EMS, and also political efforts, such as meeting with union leaders and politicians to draft new bills to reform this industry and give better pay for EMS personnel. 

 

* I have always hated insurance companies, my indictment of them is not synonymous with shock or surprise, it is my hope that we will someday have new laws that will put them in their place and take away their stranglehold on society. 

 

* You may have assumed I am young naive, I could only wish that where the case, ha I wish my hairs where not already turning grey, and that I would still be young when I'm finally a doctor with young college girls on my yaught, I have had two careers before this, I was first involved in politics and then wanted a less contentious more relaxing life in agriculture, I was not fulfilled in that and after my fiancee died in Iraq, and a few other life events happened I made a career change last year when I decided to become a Doctor. 

I will retire when I die. Only death can defeat my ambition. 

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2016 by Aesculapius

[Just Plain Ruff]

Oh boy,  Well, only one person replied to you, so only one person disagreed with you so far. 

Did you get any idea of why you were deemed uninsurable?

 

And,  do you know how much money it costs to purchase an ambulance service?  6 figures will buy you one ambulance and one employee.  

Plus remember, your professional driver needs to be an EMT in most states at a minimum.  So he/she would need to provide some care and not jsut be the professional driver unless you are going to offer a 3 man crew and just make the driver drive.  

 

You have lofty goals, but attainable goals, just keep your eyes on the prize, and make sure you have some heavy investors to help you out.  

[Richard B the EMT]

Some time back, an individual basically came here looking for information on starting a medevac helicopter service. We ended up "shooting him down", as the person knew nothing about city/county/state/province/country requirements for even what should go into an ambulance, let alone the costs that would be incurred just running a helicopter as an aircraft. Little things, like fuel, insurance, the $3/4 million for the aircraft purchase...

The current Hawaii Five 0 TV show has an interesting character, an ex felon shrimp food stand truck operator, who took and passed a helicopter pilot's license test, purchased a used helicopter, and opened a sideline business  as a tourist ride with himself as the pilot. Nice fiction, but improbable outside of Oahu...er...Hollywood. Note I'm saying improbable, not saying "ain't gonna happen". Someone with a good amount of money invested in hardware, software, the proper personnel, and a couple of tons of luck could start up a business.

I have to be a realist. Several companies I used to work for were later purchased by other companies, then the purchasing companies were themselves folded into other companies. A few of them survived, many folded. In today's market, does anybody know if a startup ambulance company could or would survive?

All I can suggest, if you still want to open an ambulance company, first research the hell out of what all the costs involved would be, extrapolate what the costs might go in the next year, decade, supply availability, and probably a bunch of stuff I, as an individual retired EMT, have no clue what they are, just that they are there. As indicated, perhaps you'll be a lucky one.

On a bit of a side note, a dose of Narcan went for a few dollars only a few years ago. Now, both the original company and manufacturers of generic Narcan are charging almost $100.00 a dose, That's a new expense some companies may not want to spend, as Nasal spray Narcan is still in "Pilot Program" status, here in New York State. Not everyone can get a medical director to sign off on using it. You and your crews going to have it on your ambulances? BLS or ALS levels, or both?

Good luck with your endeavor of a new ambulance company, none the less!

 

[ERDoc]

Welcome to the City.  I'm guessing that if you just became and EMT and are looking to get into medical school that you are probably in your early 20s.  My guess is that is the reason you cannot be insured as a driver.  You also seem to be confusing the different types of insurance companies so I'll break them down and talk about each one.  You can be as offended as you want and you can be the best driver who has ever lived but insurance companies base their decisions on risk and risk is determined from statistics and actuarial tables.  As a male in your young twenties your cohort has the worst driving record out of everyone.  That is why rates are so high and some ambulance companies may not want to pay that much when they can hire someone a bit older and save a shit-ton of money.  It just makes good business sense (which is what these EMS agencies are, a business).  Now, the other kind of insurance company you have to deal with in medicine is the health insurer.  These people are life sucking leaches whose only job is to make their shareholders money (but I may be a bit biased).  They will become the source of most of your displeasure in life if you become a physician.  They don't care about the physicians or the patients, only the shareholders (again, they are a business).  Sure there is medicare and medicaid but they only care about paying as little as possible, which is why most physicians won't accept them and some states are considering forcing physicians to see these pts as a requirement to keep you license.  It is in the health insurer that determines how much they will pay the EMS agency for a transport.  If you think dealing with them now is a pain, wait until you have to deal with things such as ICD-10 and core measures.

As others have said, EMT pay is low because they are a dime a dozen.  It's simple supply and demand.  Why would a business pay someone $10/hr when someone is willing to do the job for $8/hr (or free in the case of vollies but more on that later)?  No one is paid based on their value to society.  If this were the case, our military would be the richest people in the world and there would be no millionaire athletes and rap stars.  When you are in a position that requires less training than it takes to become a beautician, don't expect to make more than they do.  As for the vollies, your assumptions are completely wrong.  There are plenty of places that could afford a paid service but chose to stay volley (Long Island, NY is the one I am most familiar with, which is not even close to being a poor or rural area).

This is just my opinion, but having "professional" drivers is just a bad idea.  First, how do we define what a professional driver is?  I would much rather have someone driving who knows what it is like to ride in the back of the bus while trying to take care of someone.  It is also helpful to have another set of skilled hands at times, which you won't have with someone who is only a driver. As for unions, they are a double edged sword.  If you want to understand the comment Mike made about a union holding EMS back, read up on what the IAFF has done to "advance" EMS. 

It's great that you want to bring about change but you need to see where things are and what the impediments are before you jump in.

 

EDIT:  I just reread your last post and saw that you are not, in fact, in your early 20s.  It makes me think that there is something in your background that you are not being honest about otherwise there would be no reason to not be insurable as a driver.

Edited March 17, 2016 by ERDoc

[Just Plain Ruff]

 

So basically everyone who replied disagrees with me.

I'm not surprised, if more people in EMS agreed than we would have stronger unions and low pay rates would not be such a problem. 

Actually that is an incorrect statement,  many people agree with you but they just don't give a shit and they just want to collect a paycheck.  They just want to go to work, do their job, and get home safe.  Do they want better pay, sure they do, but they most often work in a area where if you try to start a union, you are fired for some reason and then you have no place else to work so you just continue to keep working.  Plus, Unions are not the panacea that you think they are.  Sure you can try to bring in a union to the workplace but what if the company doesn't want to wokr with the Union, are they forced to wokr with the union?  Does the state that the company is in, recognize unions as having to be recognized in bargaining?  

Plus what happens when you bring the union in and that union forces the company to begin to pay drastically higher wages that the company is unable to pay?  What happens then?  

I for one am not a union fan, I will work in a shop with a union, I will work in one that doesn't have one but I've never been represented by a union where they have done much good for me personally.  People/friends still got fired while working for the union so that a myth.  

As for professional drivers, to me, that's what we are supposed to be,  professional drivers.  It would actually be silly to hire a professional driver just to have one that is all that they are supposed to do.  Especially if they can't take care of patients.  

 

idealism is a great thing though.