Fire service insanity, rears its ugly head...

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

In my example I did not mean to imply that State Farm, or any other agency, was to pay for his fire suppression service. I was trying to compare his attempt to pay for the service while the home was on fire to paying for homeowners coverage while it was being destroyed. Same as watching the water rise up your front steps and frantically calling to apply for flood insurance. Too bad too sad. Shoulda thunk of that sooner.

Trucks, bunker gear, buildings, insurance, training...it all costs and is in no way minimal. This was not a public funded Volunteer service. It was a subscription service.

They had no duty to act. They were not a "public" service and were not contracted with the municipality. They were a private, dues supported fire brigade which the homeowner neglected to join.

True, that would be ridiculous and in major cities that is the reason for tax payer funded paid services. That was not the case here. Again, this was not a part of the public safety community. They were a private service. Got it yet?

In the absence of a responsible township it is up to the individual homeowner to ensure that he has provided for this particular service.

It is no different than a rural area where a private water service puts up a tower and runs pipes to any home in an area that wishes to join so that they no longer have to dig individual water wells on their property. Later a homeowner, who has elected not to join the private water district, looses water to his home because a faulty pump on his private well. Is the private water district at fault or under obligation to provide him service? No. Same for this case of a private fire brigade not putting out a fire on the property of someone who had not paid the required dues. They were under no obligation to act.

Your right to a point.

Heres the issue at hand. The responsible municipality has a responsibility to provide or name a service to the community to cover fire, EMS, and LEO services.

This must be a completely unfettered service, provided either by donation or taxes. This is a issue with the municipality at hand, not offering this service.

Your right, it was a private service. No one questioned that. There is a responsibility to provide a public service which wasn't provided. The only access this person had to fire protection was this private service.

Chances are, you live in a democratic country CSR, which gives you a right to your own opinions. Even if they are wrong.

PRPG

[Guest]

[Dustdevil]

The homeowner said that he did not know that he needed to pay dues. He says he never was told. That's not neglecting to join, it's information that he did not get.

Whose fault is that? His and his alone.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. He should have thought about that before he moved to the community. You can sure bet I would not buy a home anywhere without finding out about basic services ahead of time.

And why did he move there in the first place? Because it was cheap! And do you know why it was cheap? Because there are no taxes. And do you know why there are no taxes? Because there are no services!

Yes, in this case, ignorance was painful. The Darwin principle in action. No sympathy. None.

Squint, the "moral" thing to do is legally irrelevant. Do you work for free? Did you spent three years and tens of thousands of dollars on your education to give it away? I bet not. Does that make you immoral? Nope.

[csr]

CSR I think you are wrong but your opinion is yours.

The homeowner said that he did not know that he needed to pay dues. He says he never was told. That's not neglecting to join, it's information that he did not get.

I think he knew and decided to roll the dice. Wether he knew or not he had a responsibility to find out. He never asked, "If I fall off my roof is a municipal, tax payer paid ambulance with to Paragods and state of the art medical gear going to pull up in my drive way or will a private ambulance service be sent and I get to pay a bill to AMR or whoever that is equal to a year's salary? If someone breaks into my home is a City paid police force ready to respond or will I have to depend on a sheriff's deputy in a substation 50 miles away to come out to take a report? And if my home catches on fire, where is my local fire department, are they paid or volunteer and what ISO class rating are they?"

For much of my adult life I rented apartments. When I put my trash out it was picked up. My lawn was mowed and the outside of my place was painted and the bushes trimmed. When a pater pipe busted or my air conditioner stopped working I called the landlord and it got fixed. I never had a water bill. These services were what I got for paying my rent every month. Just like paying taxes in a large City. I paid for serivices provided where I lived.

Then I moved to a new town. I got a manufactured home and had it put on a lot in a park in a good part of town a block from the City Hall and Police station. I had to find out where to go for permits and which services I got from the land lord for paying my rent and what services my town provided. Anything else I would have to fix or provide on my own. Now part of my taxes go to the city to pick up my trash. Now my landlord pays the water bill because we are on a private water line but I have to pay the sewer bill because we are on City sewer. Now, if a pipe busts or my air conditioner stops working I have to fix it myself. I also know that I live in a ISO class 5 fire district served by a combination paid/vollie fire department. I also know my EMS service is a private ambulance service which will bill me an arm and a leg for the pleasure of coming to my home and transporting my fat ass to the nearest ER. It is up to me to know this.

What I'm saying is...Everywhere you live will have different services available. It is up to you to find out what the services are when deciding to move to a particular area.

In this case, the guy moved to a community which had not provided for funding a public fire service. Around here it would be a ISO Class 10. It was his decision to move there. He was negligent if he didn't find out.

A couple miles up the road from me is a mixed residential and business (read-strip mall) community. The crime rate there was skyrocketing and the community rightly felt that the Sheriff's Department was unable to control the problem. So the residents of certain neighborhoods and businesses formed a special Security District and everyone in those areas collectively pay for armed security patrol and responce.

What happens when a business or home right across the street from this Security district is robbed or vandalized? Does the Security company have any obligation to respond? Do the residents get to run out and yell to the Security Patrol officer, "Hey! Those guys are breaking into my store. Here's my checkbook. Can I join the Security District now? How much will it cost for you to stop them?" NO. The Security Officer can sit and watch and then drive away saying "Damn Bob, they broke that guys windows and everything. Shame isn't it? I wonder where the deputies were tonight. Oh well. Wanna grab a burger?"

Of course, I could be wrong.

[akflightmedic]

Ok, people have covered most of my arguments already so that only leaves one other aspect I dont think was mentioned yet.

Someone said, he was offering to pay for the service but they had no system in place to do on the spot collections.

Lets examine this from an employer's business angle.

How is he to collect payment?? A check, credit card..how is he to verify these are good?? Time is wasting.

What if the homeowner decides to cancel the check, charge or dispute said wages cause he really didn't have it to start with, he just wanted his home saved. While awaiting approval, we have lost several minutes in fighting the blaze, but in an area where there is no tax base for a fire department, I seriously doubt there is instant approval for processing of funds.

In addition to this, the FD probably has standard protocols for new subscribers. You sign up and they do a pre planning inspection. They know the layout of your home and most if not all hazards. Now if he collects on the spot and then sends the guys in and someone gets hurt, who is liable? The business owner cause he did not follow his standard practice. Apply this same scenario to the person who said they had a moral obligation since they were already on scene. Who would be responsible for injuries? Not Workman's Comp since they were not on the job and certainly not the homeowner since he obviously could not afford the money for fire protection. I know no where does it say he didn't have the money and no one told him he had to pay, but I call BS on this. In order to get homeowner's insurance, you have to find out certain information from your local FD's. Who would move into an area without investigating what services are available first. It is common practice. If he didnt investiagte it on his own, you have got to be kidding me if you tell me the real estate agent did not tell him or none of his neighbors told him. I think he was trying to be cheap and it caught up to him.

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

Ok, people have covered most of my arguments already so that only leaves one other aspect I dont think was mentioned yet.

Someone said, he was offering to pay for the service but they had no system in place to do on the spot collections.

Lets examine this from an employer's business angle.

How is he to collect payment?? A check, credit card..how is he to verify these are good?? Time is wasting.

What if the homeowner decides to cancel the check, charge or dispute said wages cause he really didn't have it to start with, he just wanted his home saved. While awaiting approval, we have lost several minutes in fighting the blaze, but in an area where there is no tax base for a fire department, I seriously doubt there is instant approval for processing of funds.

In addition to this, the FD probably has standard protocols for new subscribers. You sign up and they do a pre planning inspection. They know the layout of your home and most if not all hazards. Now if he collects on the spot and then sends the guys in and someone gets hurt, who is liable? The business owner cause he did not follow his standard practice. Applpy this same scenarion to the person who said they had a moral obligation since they were already on scene. Who would be responsible for injuries? Not Workman's Comp since they were not on the job and certainly not the homeowner since he obviously could not afford the money for fire protection. I know no where does it say he didn't have the money and no one told him he had to pay, but I call BS on this. In order to get homeowner's insurance, you have to find out certain information from your local FD's. Who would move into an area without investigating what services are available first. It is common practice. If he didnt investiagte it on his own, you have got to be kidding me if you tell me the real estate agent did not tell him or none of his neighbors told him. I think he was trying to be cheap and it caught up to him.

You raise a good point.

[UMSTUDENT]

Everyone should read some Hobbes, Locke and Rousseau. Social Contract Theory. These philosophical writings can be found in "Leviathan", "Two Treatises of Government" and "Social Contract", Or Principles of Political Rights" respectively. They are sort of relevant to the conversation each in their own way.

From a current legal perspective there is some gray ground, but there is some literature to suggest that it should be otherwise. Personally, I do believe governments have an obligation to provide fire, police, EMS and basic healthcare.

[Ghettomedic351]

PPG you took the words right out of my mouth.

Spot on if you ask me.

Even though the homeowner said he'd pay the dues they still didn't fight the fire. That's just plain wrong.

For the person who lives in that area who posted, what are the fire departments dues anyway? How much are they?

Ruff, I don't actually live in the area just work the county Ambulance part time, the dues there are 65$ per household and I believe that this includes outbuildings. I would also like to say that there are two departments, you have Monett City which happens to be a fully staffed and paid union department, then you have Monett Rural FD which is an all volunteer non tax funded organization. Monett Rural does not even have the funding to provide its own extrication equipment, so if you get into an accident in their service area you have to wait for the city to show up with extrication tools same for all the other vollie departments in Barry county. I know it is a sad situation when the ambulance in this county is set up this way. We do our own call taking,Dispatching and information gathering(duty crews), there are not many actual street addresses most are Rural routes and PO boxes so when an emergency comes in and you ask someone for an address they give you one of the two, makes for alot of confusion. They are, as I said about 20 years behind the rest of the world. Any more questions feel free to ask!

[xselerate]

I don't see what the fuss is all about. .

Before I read this I was becoming sick.... now I feel that impending sense of doom....

My regular job is EMS but I volunteer for a volly ambulance company near where I live. We have to throw car washes to collect money for gas and service for our vehicle. If we went to a job and checked a patients name on a list of last years donations and decided not to provide a service I would probable be stricken with projectile vomit.

Emergency services, volunteer or not, ARE HELD TO A DIFFERENT STANDARD then any other type of business/organization.

They should have put the fire out and then the community should have billed the guy triple his backed dues. They guy was obviously in the wrong... but still.... it dosn't sit right with me....

[ladyfirefighter36]

:x Why did they even bother showing up if they weren't going to do anything. I would be furious. The owner stated that he didn't know about the service. How often do they go out collecting or send payment notices? Surely someone's a@@ is going to be on the line for this one. Glad I don't live in that area.