Active entry, or support roles only

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

Ok, time for a real live actual thread in the Tac catagory that isnt training oriented. Holy crap.

Moving on....

Of all the active Tems providers out there, do your services provide active entry time and stack-work, or are you aligned to the support role only. Trying to get a feel for the standard here.

PRPG

[Guest]

PRPG,

I am not a member of the local boys in black, lol. But i have trained with them. From what i have gathered from them and visiting agencies is this, The only time any of the teams i have spoken with allow a Medic to make entry with them is if they are a certified Officer. Other than that it is all support role. your dressed out and ready to go but possibly not armed and only enter if needed.

Thats all i know

Race

[Dsmittty911]

I can actually answer that part of the question since I am ex-cop. The dept that I work for actually has a trauma doc who is also a certified peace officer and swat trained. If he is there (planned warrant) he will go in. If he's not there they will have als unit standing by but will not enter until scene safe. So to answer your question since doc is a will go but anyone else will be standby in support role.

[matt202]

As I have said before TEMS is a fairly new concept in the UK, so I was trained as a team member before qualifying as a Paramedic. Bottom line is that if you are the only medic on the team you will be in a support role but still part of the entry team. If there is more than one medic on the team you are aloud to get to the sharp end.

[bullmedic]

We respond with multiple agencies. And each has their own ideas. With one agency we go to LCC(last cover and concealment) with others we are relegated to suppport which could be 50 feet or 5000 feet away. There have been several incidents that required our treatment and I think we will continue to get closer and closer to the entry points. It is certainly easier to train a medic to the police work than it is to train a police officer to do the medics work. Remember your service would be better served to have a practicing medic come to swat training than to have a police officer come to ride on an EMS unit once a month. If you want to provide ALS care. If you just want someone to patch a hole and then wait around for a medic then I guess you could train your officers to the basic standard. What officers have to remember is that if someone shoots them under their arm a basic is not going to do them much good. If worse yet they get shot there and cannot be removed from the hot zone they are in real trouble. Look at the Alexandria Shootout in Alexandria, LA. See if you think ALS paramedics could have done some good for the officers that were pinned down and bleeding to death if they had been closer than a "couple of blocks" away.

BULL

[matt202]

The way we do it over here is to select previously trained nurses/para's/military medics who have joined the police service and then train them as team medics and that includes all the firearms training. Each team member must also have completed basic trauma course. This provides close quarter medical support with a conventional response from the EMS services at the last point of cover and concealment.

In the UK it is against the law for non-police officers to carry weapons, that's why we train the police as medics.

regards

Matt

[AnthonyM83]

I can actually answer that part of the question since I am ex-cop. The dept that I work for actually has a trauma doc who is also a certified peace officer and swat trained. If he is there (planned warrant) he will go in. If he's not there they will have als unit standing by but will not enter until scene safe. So to answer your question since doc is a will go but anyone else will be standby in support role.

I remember reading an article about an MD who was a cop on the SWAT team some time ago. I think it might have been in Texas as well (don't suppose there are THAT many MD SWAT members in TX...)... though CA's EMS Director was a part-time police officer / doc for awhile...

[SSG G-man]

Watching a recent episode of either Dallas SWAT of Texas SWAT, I saw one of their teams had a MD as a member. IF I remember correctly, he was armed and was close to the entry point. This incident barricaded subject eventually shot himself, do not know outcome.

[alexeden]

Let's think of it this way. There is nothing wrong with a medic making entry, or just supporting. But regardless, if you want to ensure medical care, one medic should stay only supporting role for each incident because if the only medic on the team makes entry and gets wounded, how can he/she help anyone else that gets wounded?

[DAUPHIN TRUCK 88]

From my experience with multiple teams across the US the medics must be qualified sworn officers to be armed and make any type of entry. With that said for the most part the team medics stay on the perimeter or at the main entry point and wait for an all clear before making entry with the exception of a officer down. In that case (if they are not armed) they are taken in by the door man if at all possible.