EMS Doctoral Program

[UMSTUDENT]

I'm not sure if this is really the appropriate place for this, but I really didn't think it fell into the "student" or "instructor" forums because it requires input from both sides.

Basically, I'm interested to see what people here think about a doctoral program focused on EMS. Granted, there are very few university based programs as it is now, but in a perfect world where 4-year EMS programs were found in a decent amount of colleges and universities, would you support a doctoral program?

If you do, what type of school or doctoral program do you think it should fall in?

Should it be a Ph.D, Dr.P.H, D.H.S, etc?

Under what college should it be found? Public Health, Medicine, etc?

Would there be a use for such a degree? Now or in the future? Would you prefer a professional masters or doctoral degree? OR, is the use for such a degree already being filled by another set of degrees?

What would the research preferably focus on?

Would you pursue such a degree?

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

I'm not sure if this is really the appropriate place for this, but I really didn't think it fell into the "student" or "instructor" forums because it requires input from both sides.

Basically, I'm interested to see what people here think about a doctoral program focused on EMS. Granted, there are very few university based programs as it is now, but in a perfect world where 4-year EMS programs were found in a decent amount of colleges and universities, would you support a doctoral program?

If you do, what type of school or doctoral program do you think it should fall in?

Should it be a Ph.D, Dr.P.H, D.H.S, etc?

Under what college should it be found? Public Health, Medicine, etc?

Would there be a use for such a degree? Now or in the future? Would you prefer a professional masters or doctoral degree? OR, is the use for such a degree already being filled by another set of degrees?

What would the research preferably focus on?

Would you pursue such a degree?

Ok...time out....too much.

A doctorate, EMS oriented, that would get you, if I had to guess....the same as a similarly titled masters?

Repost this in 20 years, itll be more legit. EMS has alot more growing to do.

[JakeEMTP]

While I respect your thirst for knowledge, a doctorate in EMS is somewhat of a reach. What we do in the field is not surgery. We stabilize the pt to the best of our ability and get them to the hospital asap.

The AAS and BSc that are available currently would suffice IMHO.

[UMSTUDENT]

So PRPG says we should have a professional masters and Jake simply has a lack of vision. Read.

I also feel that there is some misunderstanding of exactly "what" a doctoral degree "gets you." You don't spend years in school (doctoral program) to "get" anything. You spend years doing intense research to "give" some knowledge back to the community.

Most people who obtain a doctoral level degree aren't given any type of privileges (not withstanding the ability to obtain tenure in a institution of higher learning). It simply says that you spent a significant amount of time researching something in your particular field and that you've defended said thesis in front of a committee of peers in academia.

I'd like to remind everyone that while the practice of prehospital emergency medicine is relatively simple in the grand scheme of things, there is more to our profession that just the skills we do in the back of an ambulance. There is provider safety, patient trends, injury epidemiology, EMS management, and host of other things that can and should be studied. Having a doctoral program just promotes this research.

Please, more constructive criticism.

[JakeEMTP]

I stand by my post. I do not have a lack of vision, you sir have your head in the clouds. If you want to pursue a doctorate by all means, go ahead. I do not however think you would find enough ppl to support such a thing. As evidence, as you stated, the lack of BSc programs currently available.

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

So PRPG says we should have a professional masters and Jake simply has a lack of vision. Read.

I also feel that there is some misunderstanding of exactly "what" a doctoral degree "gets you." You don't spend years in school to "get" anything. You spend years doing intense research to "give" some knowledge back to the community.

Most people who obtain a doctoral level degree aren't given any type of privileges (not withstanding the ability to obtain tenure in a institution of higher learning). It simply says that you spent a significant amount of time researching something in your particular field and that you've defended said thesis in front of a committee of peers in academia.

I'd like to remind everyone that while the practice of prehospital emergency medicine is relatively simple in the grand scheme of things, there is more to our profession that just the skills we do in the back of an ambulance. There is provider safety, patient trends, injury epidemiology, EMS management, and host of other things that can and should be studied. Having a doctoral program just promotes this research.

Please, more constructive criticism.

Two things.

One, I am aware what a doctorate is. The point I was attempting to make centered around the fact that it would require a elevation to a collegiate level of all EMS education to make any "giving back to acedemia" worth a damn. This is years, not months ahead.

Two, From a perspective of research, there is little that is researched that is truely, 100% EMS. Please remember, we practice medicine. Most of the research that exists isn't coming from anyone with a EMS specific degree, it's someone with a degree in a related field of medical or scientific practice.

Oh, an EMS management doctorate? No. Too narrow a scope for a long term of education.

Reccomendations? Save your ideas for later. They will be revolutionary, somewhere around 2030. Right now, you sound like a college student with no grasp of the EMS career ladder, and the overall scope of the EMs system. I am aware that you arent that, but that is what you sound like.

Doctorate is step 2,104,832 and were on step 9. Lets work on step 10.

PRPG

[AnthonyM83]

PRPG,

While I'm not working in the EMS frield, yet, I feel I can still disagree here. A doctorate would be for performing research and advancing the field from the academic end. If there's a group that thinks this is possible, I think it can only help the field. A PhD would not be performing in the field, but rather doing research, so one doesn't have to wait until emergency responders (basics, paramedics) earn higher status or education levels. A PhD can be independent of that. A PhD in EMs is not going to be some sort of super medic, but a perhaps an ally in advancing the field (not necessarily the profession, though hopefully that too).

[Ridryder 911]

First EMS cannot have a Doctoral program for one simple reason, the studies must be recognized as a profession. At this time we are still considered a trade. As well there has to be scientific or social standards, to demonstrate academia as a profession. Usually, with a doctorate level means you have reached the highest level to be achieved and ranks into the professional category (i,e attorney, engineer, physician). We have a LONG WAY to go ...Our profession is still based at a technical phase.

I believe that any University that would even consider would have their program challenged seriously. Even, levels above associate is in question due to the intent of the programs are still geared at a technical level. Although, I believe an undergrad level is acceptable above baccalaureate level should be specialized from EMS at this time. Unfortunately at this time there has not been enough education, research or associated academic levels to sustain it.

What position would you place an individual to justify 10 years of college and a student loan $75,000 to $100,000 for a doctorate level ?Administration, education, research already has respectfully specific degrees that would be more adventitious.

R/R 911

[UMSTUDENT]

Two things.

One, I am aware what a doctorate is. The point I was attempting to make centered around the fact that it would require a elevation to a collegiate level of all EMS education to make any "giving back to acedemia" worth a damn. This is years, not months ahead.

Two, From a perspective of research, there is little that is researched that is truly, 100% EMS. Please remember, we practice medicine. Most of the research that exists isn't coming from anyone with a EMS specific degree, it's someone with a degree in a related field of medical or scientific practice.

Oh, an EMS management doctorate? No. Too narrow a scope for a long term of education.

Reccomendations? Save your ideas for later. They will be revolutionary, somewhere around 2030. Right now, you sound like a college student with no grasp of the EMS career ladder, and the overall scope of the EMs system. I am aware that you arent that, but that is what you sound like.

Doctorate is step 2,104,832 and were on step 9. Lets work on step 10.

PRPG

There is no EMS career ladder. Well at least not one that is lucrative.

Let me reword your answer without the attitude (no offense):

1.You believe that there shouldn't be an EMS education at a doctoral level. At least not right now

2.You believe that currently other professions are handling EMS research okie dokie.

These are valid beliefs, but let me offer a rebuttal:

1. Most of the country is moving to a requirement of a Associates Level education to be a paramedic. I know you, PRPG, are aware of this. There are several Baccalaureate level programs in the country and a few graduate programs.

2.We don't practice medicine. Doctors do, but we don't. We practice a set of protocols. There isn't a paramedic in this country with the privileges to experiment with treatments or make definitive decisions when it comes to a patent's care. Those decisions have been made for us on pieces of paper. The scientific physician exist for a reason, and there is a reason that the MD and DO are considered professional doctorates.

3. There is plenty of research being done regarding EMS. Most of it seems to be appearing in trade journals instead of peer-reviewed journals. The other aspect of EMS research is coming from the private industry. From companies such like Zoll, Medtronic, etc who are trying to sell a product. I think the lack of written research is because the majority of people in our field lack the training in proper research methods.

4.Just because there are only a few set theories regarding EMS management doesn't mean others don't exist and have yet to be discovered.

Just my $.02

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

PRPG,

While I'm not working in the EMS frield, yet, I feel I can still disagree here. A doctorate would be for performing research and advancing the field from the academic end. If there's a group that thinks this is possible, I think it can only help the field. A PhD would not be performing in the field, but rather doing research, so one doesn't have to wait until emergency responders (basics, paramedics) earn higher status or education levels. A PhD can be independent of that. A PhD in EMs is not going to be some sort of super medic, but a perhaps an ally in advancing the field (not necessarily the profession, though hopefully that too).

Your right, you cant respond, because you actually didnt disagree with me, you presented a different point altogether.

Back to my point, for further illustration *pulls out box of crayons*

PH D is a level of education, designed to give back to "acedemia" so further acedemics can learn from it correct?

Problem #1: Until EMS has advanced to its full potential with connections to collegiate programs, and away from technical programs, offering the acedemic community new information through research, when there has yet to be established a "acedemic community" is kind of pointless, dont you think?

Or do you think the local 6 month BLS class cares about your thesis, recent research, or anything less than who they woke up next to, or which instructor gives the easiest grades? NO! NO! NO!

When we have acedemia, then bring on advanced degrees. You cannot go from one side of the field (technicial education, where we currently are) to advanced post graduate studies (IE: Doctorate) without gradually stepping across the bridge.

Right now, a masters is more than adequate, and will usually secure you upper echelon positions when needed.

I should note, I think Doctorates will become the obvious next step, when the market eventually floods with Masters.

WERE A LONG TIME AWAY FROM THAT. LETS GET OUT OF TECH SCHOOL BEFORE WE WORRY ABOUT THIS.

*Spell checked, 2 mistakes found, not changed, to illustrate my lack of a doctorate....thanks )