EMS Doctoral Program

[Dustdevil]

I am going to try my damndest to stay out of this discussion. As valid as the discussion is in theory, in practice, it is pointless.

Suffice it to say that I am very disappointed in what UM correctly perceives as a lack of vision from many here. He is attempting to discuss the future, yet some are totally unable to see past the present to imagine it. Although, as dismal as our "present" is, I can certainly understand that.

Basically, I completely agree with UM. Well, I agreed with him up until the stuff about prevention. :?

[Ridryder 911]

Well if we are taling about visionary we might as well want at the same time all medics have an upper middle income, all have at least a undergrad level, and recieve full benefits and no one is called an ambulance driver as well...... :wink:

R/R 911

[AnthonyM83]

There doesn't necessarily have to be a pot-of-gold at the end of the rainbow for someone to pursue an education in a given field. I'll use those that major in philosophy as an example...

I know plenty of "kids" who go to school for fun and will never have to rely on earning any type of substantial living. People whose parents are wealthy enough to support and finance their years of research. There are plenty of them out there and plenty of college kids with an interest in EMS. Hundreds of universities have responding services on campus, some with fully functional BLS and ALS transport services. I always wonder how many of these "kids" would have pursued a degree in EMS had the opportunity been presented to them. The people are here now, with the money to invest in such an education, we just need to encourage it.

Professional students with abundant money are so rare that they don't really provide a good defense...but I also disagree with Ryder that their reasearch isn't respected. It's respected as much as anyone else obtaining the same degree. The fact they have a bunch of past degrees doesn't change good research.

Anyway, UMS, I don't see a doctorate being on the same ladder as BLS and ALS. It would have its own track and be associated with the medical profession or whatever the closest pre-existing category is. I'd see it more of an administrative type degree or just doing research on EMS efficiency, different programs, and so on...probably in the hospital setting too.

If someone wanted to work in the field treating (in reference to those kids working the EMS service on campus), it'd be kinda dumb to go for a doctorate. Their medical knowledge isn't going to be THAT more advanced and their scope of practice is still going to be the same (EMTP level). If an EMTB kid from campus wants to reach higher, he should go for EMTP, RN, MD, etc...not a PhD. They'd be two different tracks.

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

There is a distinctive difference with visionary, realist, and visionary, with the ability to connote realism.

Lets seperate.

Dust, UM, and anyone who agrees is a visionary.

Rid, myself, and anyone who agrees falls into a visionary, with ability to connote realism.

We all agree on one thing. Doctorates will eventually find their way into EMS.

Rid and I contend that its insane to begin contemplating doctorates, when we cant get uniform assocates for paramedics. It will happen, just many, many, many, many years down the road. We have many steps along the way to get there, which deserve attention first. This isnt one.

UM and that bandwagon can only see a need for Doctorates. They have not been able to comprehend that there are a thousand steps before this that are more important.

Lets work on the system as a whole, and advancing education beyond the scope of the technical level.

***END POST***

For UM, since you questioned my qualifications to analyze the obvious downfalls in life, im happy to provide you with a resume, please email me at prpg@prpg.org

Also, your a smart kid, but your not looking ast the big picture of the system as a whole. Read a few more trade magazines, run a few more calls, learn the overall system and how it operates, and remove your head from your a$$ before posting again.

**duely edited because spelling dun killin' me tonight**

[flight-lp]

Maybe its just me and I really do not feel like going into great lengths about it, but I already see the doctorate level of EMS research and generalized health prevention. Its called a Physician! EMS is not on this planet to promote prevention, we are here to offer stabilization and transport. The two are like apples and oranges. UM while I appreciate your vision, I fail to see its direct correlation with EMS. To me it appears to be more consistant with Nursing and public health education. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way down playing the need for these roles, but in my personal and professional opinion, they would be better filled by personnel who are more appropriately trained in public education, public health, and a long term treatment care plan for the public as a whole. i.e. an RN or public health LVN. EMS needs to stay focused on our mission; to provide emergent medical care to the acutely ill or injured..........................................

Sorry if it doesn't make sense, 38 hours of no sleep are catching up with me!!!!!!

[AnthonyM83]

UM and that bandwagon can only see a need for Doctorates. They have not been able to comprehend that there are a thousand steps before this that are more important.

Lets work on the system as a whole, and advancing education beyond the scope of the technical level.

Then there's also me who doesn't ONLY see a need for doctorates, yet still thinks that doctorates could work if on a different track than practicing medicine. In the way that usually a Psy.D is for clinical psychologists and PhD for research psychologists. Or in the way police officers and criminal justice PhDs are on different tracks, so it doesn't matter if education requirements aren't increased in order for someont to get their criminal justice PhD. I'm all for increasing the education requirements of the EMTs, but I think that's separate from the doctorate issue. The doctorates probably wouldn't be working in ambulances, unless they did it as a side thing or during a specific phase of their training.

[UMSTUDENT]

I too know many "kids that are professional students" and no one takes their research and them seriously. I believe we are getting out of track. and discussion is "putting the cart before the horse." Yes, money is not everything, but again,again you cannot have a professional doctorate degree in something that is still not considered a profession as of yet. The masters and even baccalaureate, I still question intent and creditability. After reviewing their core curriculum the appear to be generic science degree with an emphasis in EMS more than a true EMS degree. Although, they are from respectable institutions applications and use of these degrees has yet to be seen.

These school's alumni speak for themselves. Doctors, administrators, flight medics, etc. From all corners of the world. You say you question "intent and creditability," yet many of these programs produce very good paramedics and administrators. There is no "intent" beyond that goal, especially since none of these people are making a killing as a university professor. You should know that professors make crap most of the time. Most of the Baccalaureate programs are found in well-respected colleges with a very high level of fiscal responsibility. From what I've seen the goals of these institutions is genuine.

As for what education a paramedic student may get at a program like this, I point you to the clinicals, the facilities, the resources, the instructors, the alumni, etc, etc.

Finally, your comment about people not taking the research of kids seriously is ridiculous. Research is research, especially if it's useful. A Ph.D from Johns Hopkins or Harvard is the same no matter if you're 27 or 67. People will respect you for the extraordinary individual you are.

[UMSTUDENT]

Then there's also me who doesn't ONLY see a need for doctorates, yet still thinks that doctorates could work if on a different track than practicing medicine. In the way that usually a Psy.D is for clinical psychologists and PhD for research psychologists. Or in the way police officers and criminal justice PhDs are on different tracks, so it doesn't matter if education requirements aren't increased in order for someont to get their criminal justice PhD. I'm all for increasing the education requirements of the EMTs, but I think that's separate from the doctorate issue. The doctorates probably wouldn't be working in ambulances, unless they did it as a side thing or during a specific phase of their training.

No, I agree with what your saying. I was never professing that these people would necessarily be working in medicine to any higher level, but instead would focus on research and education. The need for a higher level of provider exist in my opinion, but not one that would require a doctoral level position. It would be similar to how the nursing profession currently operates.