EMS Doctoral Program

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

First EMS cannot have a Doctoral program for one simple reason, the studies must be recognized as a profession. At this time we are still considered a trade. As well there has to be scientific or social standards, to demonstrate academia as a profession. Usually, with a doctorate level means you have reached the highest level to be achieved and ranks into the professional category (i,e attorney, engineer, physician). We have a LONG WAY to go ...Our profession is still based at a technical phase.

I believe that any University that would even consider would have their program challenged seriously. Even, levels above associate is in question due to the intent of the programs are still geared at a technical level. Although, I believe an undergrad level is acceptable above baccalaureate level should be specialized from EMS at this time. Unfortunately at this time there has not been enough education, research or associated academic levels to sustain it.

What position would you place an individual to justify 10 years of college and a student loan $75,000 to $100,000 for a doctorate level ?Administration, education, research already has respectfully specific degrees that would be more adventitious.

R/R 911

Word. EMS based doctorate too narrow. Give time. Soon enough.

[Ridryder 911]

Yeah, lets get our education level above 6 to 10'th grade level first. Then associate, then upper level.. .then post level... .

I will probably be dead by then..... :shock:

R/R 911

[AnthonyM83]

I imagined the PhDs workinig more alongside the people doing medical research on response times, protocols, and comparing survival rates and reporting to similar entities, rather than being academically connected with the basics and paramedics.

It's more in the way that a criminology PhD is usually neither actively working in the field of law enforcement nor reporting directly to the cops coming out of the academy. It doesn't require that police academies get harder or recruits require degrees before the PhDs' studies can be published.

[UMSTUDENT]

I imagined the PhDs workinig more alongside the people doing medical research on response times, protocols, and comparing survival rates and reporting to similar entities, rather than being academically connected with the basics and paramedics.

It's more in the way that a criminology PhD is usually neither actively working in the field of law enforcement nor reporting directly to the cops coming out of the academy. It doesn't require that police academies get harder or recruits require degrees before the PhDs' studies can be published.

Exactly. A lot of resentment seems to come from the fact that generations of paramedics, already established in their careers, will refuse to allow a younger (in some cases), more educated generation dictate policy in the field because of their "new fangled" research ideas. Paramedicine is definitely a field that is intimidated by education.

I think more fear comes from higher medicine too. Many of the upper echelons of medicine with a vested interest in the emergency medical field gain nothing, from their point of view, from a better educated paramedic. A paramedic who can effectively triage, accomplish basic procedures and administer basic routine medications would probably decrease a large amount of ER visits. I think this is one of the reasons the APP curriculum was shot down so quickly. Think too about all the physician assistants and nurse practitioners who populate our nation's ERs.

The future of EMS isn't the delivery of emergency care and transport, but the prevention of emergency care and transport. By providing effective preventive medicine to our aging populations we can prevent many of the medical emergencies that we respond to every day. With crowding hospitals, a dwindling social security system, and no national health care I think it will become pertinent to bring medicine back to the home. A reversal of sorts of the last 40 years of medical culture. To say that a doctoral program is premature is self-defeating. We just sit and wait for the right time that will never come.

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

Exactly. A lot of resentment seems to come from the fact that generations of paramedics, already established in their careers, will refuse to allow a younger (in some cases), more educated generation dictate policy in the field because of their "new fangled" research ideas. Paramedicine is definitely a field that is intimidated by education.

I think more fear comes from higher medicine too. Many of the upper echelons of medicine with a vested interest in the emergency medical field gain nothing, from their point of view, from a better educated paramedic. A paramedic who can effectively triage, accomplish basic procedures and administer basic routine medications would probably decrease a large amount of ER visits. I think this is one of the reasons the APP curriculum was shot down so quickly. Think too about all the physician assistants and nurse practitioners who populate our nation's ERs.

The future of EMS isn't the delivery of emergency care and transport, but the prevention of emergency care and transport. By providing effective preventive medicine to our aging populations we can prevent many of the medical emergencies that we respond to every day. With crowding hospitals, a dwindling social security system, and no national health care I think it will become pertinent to bring medicine back to the home. A reversal of sorts of the last 40 years of medical culture. To say that a doctoral program is premature is self-defeating. We just sit and wait for the right time that will never come.

1: The future of EMS is not prevention of medical problems, and you again show your lack of understanding of EMS with this statement. The future of EMS is a distinctly expanded scope of education, allowing providers to field treat emergencies, that would have (today) gone directly for evaluations. Insurance companies are now seeing the fiscal benefits of treatment in the field versus treatment in the ED (diabetic treat and release). This is going to expand exponentially in the future.

2. Your right, Paramedicine is DEFINATELY a field scared by higher education and advancement, which is why ONCE again Im going to repeat that a doctorate degree is eons before its time. There is a educational ladder in acedemia, and we are at the bottom. Lets get ourselves away from tech school educations before we try to rise any father. We have alot of steps to make, and right now, this isnt one of them.

3. The future of EMS is not, and will never be accomplished with simple prevention. the fire service has accomplished fire decrease with prevention, primarily due to manual control (sprinklers and foam systems) and less with education. You can tell someone not to play with matches, but you cant tell them not to get sick. Feel free to attempt to defy human nature, and the EMS officials of the new age will be over here, dealing with real issues.

To recap, your a smart kid. Get your head out of the clouds and get real. You might actually be effective is accomplishing something positive in this business. Til then, good luck wasting your time.

PRPG (Serving the public with a full understanding and an associates, since 1998)

[UMSTUDENT]

That reply is exactly what I'd expect to hear from someone with a vested interest in keeping EMS where it is today. Unfortunately for your opinions, I think they come with a little bias. No one here can forget that you're starting a 911 service that will rely on dumb "kids" staying dumb (not so much literally, but at least by maintaing the current job function). Your business relies on the fact that EMS will maintain it's position of transporting the sick and injured. More simply, people getting sick is your bread and butter. There is nothing wrong with this, and like you, I too believe that the majority of our profession will always concentrate its collective efforts on this task. It is of my opinion though that this will only be the simple majority of the field in the future.

I think I may have been a little "broad" in my statements about the prevention issue, since having read your first point, I agree whole heartily. Field treatment is exactly what I meant by prevention. Treating grandma's CHF before it becomes an emergency is the best type of preventive medicine I can think of. That is a role I think EMS will play, especially among the poorer populations.

Also, let me address your statement about EMS being on the bottom latter of academe. In your state alone there are two universities that provide education at the undergraduate and graduate levels. UPITT (BS in Emergency Medicine) and Drexel (graduate program in Emergency and Public Safety Services).

Also, what qualifies you to make such sweeping statements about what is a "realistic" future for EMS. Do you have any formal training in public health? Any formal training beyond that of paramedic? I want to hear about more than Pennsylvania "street cred" and an entrepreneurial spirit. I'm not discrediting your opinions, just saying that they are no more unrealistic than mine.

[Just Plain Ruff]

This is really getting good. Great arguments on both sides.

[AnatomyChick]

Sorry, I have to jump on the Ridryder / PRPG Bandwagon... They have made several points that I agree with.

Rid - What type of job will those with a Doctorate Degree obtain to pay back their $75,000 - $100,000 loans? The idea that there will be a future job in EMS that makes this feasible is ludicrous at the very least. As Rid also stated, we are not accepted as a Profession, but rather as a trade.... let's put the chicken back in the egg, and start with getting EMS recognized as a profession... I think the number of people who would be interested in devoting their time and $$$ into a Doctorate program would be very minimal.

PRPG - When we have acedemia, then bring on advanced degrees. You cannot go from one side of the field (technicial education, where we currently are) to advanced post graduate studies (IE: Doctorate) without gradually stepping across the bridge.

I should note, I think Doctorates will become the obvious next step, when the market eventually floods with Masters.

I also agree that we are at "step 9, needing to move to 10" and what you are suggesting, while GREAT in theory, is not something that will (or can) be accomplished in a short amount of time. We have much too far to go in EMS... more important battles to be won.

I have been in EMS FOREVER, however, just because you are "younger" or "newer to the business" does not give you "ownership" to new and aggressive ideas... I think that what everyone here is trying to say is, "this is a great plan for the future, but we're not there yet"... but maybe I'm reading something that's not really there... anyway, that's just my Honest & Humble Opinion.

[UMSTUDENT]

There doesn't necessarily have to be a pot-of-gold at the end of the rainbow for someone to pursue an education in a given field. I'll use those that major in philosophy as an example...

I know plenty of "kids" who go to school for fun and will never have to rely on earning any type of substantial living. People whose parents are wealthy enough to support and finance their years of research. There are plenty of them out there and plenty of college kids with an interest in EMS. Hundreds of universities have responding services on campus, some with fully functional BLS and ALS transport services. I always wonder how many of these "kids" would have pursued a degree in EMS had the opportunity been presented to them. The people are here now, with the money to invest in such an education, we just need to encourage it.

[Ridryder 911]

I too know many "kids that are professional students" and no one takes their research and them seriously. I believe we are getting out of track. and discussion is "putting the cart before the horse." Yes, money is not everything, but again,again you cannot have a professional doctorate degree in something that is still not considered a profession as of yet. The masters and even baccalaureate, I still question intent and creditability. After reviewing their core curriculum the appear to be generic science degree with an emphasis in EMS more than a true EMS degree. Although, they are from respectable institutions applications and use of these degrees has yet to be seen.

I am by far not against furthering the education level, but as with ANY profession you must start at the base and then work your way up. It would be hard to present a Doctoral level degree, knowing that the entry level textbook is written at a 6'th grade level. We still have not determine that we are even in the medical field yet... many still consider us in the public service, rescue, etc....

That is why I still one of the reasons I question the baccalaureate degree at this time, let us mandate above the high school credentials, then get out of trade school (which is majority of programs is sponsored by). A while back a post regarding a university president mentioning that this was not a profession but more a trade. So academia still has not yet even considered us above "blue collar" profession.

I know several years ago, I attended a JEMS conference and few of us educators met in a small board room to discuss the future of EMS. (some of those involved were James Page, Mike Smith, Mike Taigman, Bryan Bledsoe..etc) Brain storming of the future of EMS was made including the discussion of a Doctoral program were discussed. Again, the consensus was that we need to emphasize repairing the foundation before proceeding upwards. You cannot build an upper level profession without securing the base first.

Actually, all this talk and discussion is just that ...talk. Even in my state it is difficult to have the Paramedic program in a junior college setting, due to funding. If there is a duplicate program offered through a technical program (Vo-tech) the state may not receive Federal funding, due to duplication of education and services. As well, competition of straight programs in comparison of those that require adjunct education makes non-degree more attractive to future students. Until NHTSA and states require degree programs this will never change.

I am aware that the Doctorate Nursing (DNsc) programs have been well established for several years and it has been very difficult for Universities to obtain and fund these. In comparison of the Master programs of nursing science, there is still very few DNsc programs, and there is a market and funding for both programs. Most opt for Doctorates in allied degrees.

Like I said before, I would like to see such, but better yet I prefer to see EMT's receive an above 6'th grade level programs and the Paramedic to have text written above the 10'th grade level as well.

Be safe,

R/R 911