NEMSA WINS IN OREGON

[Scaramedic]

Hey Dusty here's the difference in the cost of living between the two regions. I know the numbers are alot bigger than any Para salary but it gives ya an idea. Found this on a real estate site. Your right there is a huge difference.

Portland OR income of 100,000 = San Jose income of 167,476.

[cosgrojo]

With a mean income difference like that.... NEMSA will be lucky to make any changes in EMT compensation... or put the ambulance industry out of many jobs in that area. AMR or not, no company is in it to lose money.

Massachusettes EMT's make about 2 dollars more per hour than New Hampshire EMT's. Cost of living is marginally higher, and in NH there are no income taxes. All of that type of information factors in to a regions compensation policy. NEMSA can't just hold thire collective breath until their faces turn blue and hope to get better compensation.

[hugopreuss]

Dear Nay-Sayers,

Perhaps, after all the years of being called "ambulance drivers", it seems some among us, still deserve the title.

For years, all of us have been complaining of being the "red headed stepchild" of EMS. We complained about low wages, benefits, etc. Some of us joined bus drivers unions, janitor unions, carpenters unions, government unions, you name it, to improve our standing. Then we all yap till the cows come home about a federal level post for EMS within DHS or HHS. SEIU (IAEP is a division of SEIU), spends $75 million dollars of union dues, trying to get Howard Dean and subsequently John Kerry elected. Meanwhile, Sacramento magazine in their latest issue reports that an EMT/Firefighter makes $73.000 dollars a year (approx.), while private industry paramedics not with AMR in the area start out less than a pimpled faced high school kid at a burger flipping joint.

We can yap all day on any forum about what professionals we all are and that's fine and dandy. But when you ask a paramedic if he or she feels like a "professional" making eight dollars an hour, while Skippy makes nine fifty, while asking you if "you want frys with that", then maybe that might put things in perspective for said medic.

Over 4000 EMT's and paramedics have joined NEMSA in less than a year and half (try and duplicate that. IAEP has had 15 years to make things happen and they've got only7500 members in those 15 years and soon to lose more, including their flag ship, Local 1 in Boston).

Let's assume that those aforementioned were dropped on their head at birth and therefore have an IQ of 5 ( I do not intend to offend anyone having been dropped on the head at birth, having an IQ of 5, or both).

What do the naysayers suggest we do to improve EMS then? Spend another $75 million dollars in the next presidential campaign? Dye our hair brown or blond so we can't be the redheaded stepchild anymore by definition? or how about joining the Boiler makers union, no wait, that's already been done, so never mind that one! How about joining the IAFF and trust that the firefighters will look out for us private EMS folks.

As for the argument that "international unions" are better for us because of the supposed "solidarity" we have with the other members of those unions. Give me a break. Are you honestly saying that hotel employees in Huston, Texas will show "solidarity" with striking EMS workers in New Jersey? Or think some Kaiser floor nurse in San Francisco will walk a picket line to support AMR employees in the same city. Dream on. Not going to happen. Except and I'll give you that, in France, where striking is considered an annual Olympic sport. But I tell you what. I'll walk the picket line for another EMT or medic in a heart beat in the US, so that he or she can provide a living for his or her family.

I will not walk the line for a union that blows millions of my union dollars on Howard Dean, no matter how much I like him, (or don't). I will not walk the line for unions that spent millions of my union dollar sending anti-war demonstrators to the streets "decrying" whatever "social injustice" and "disenfrenchfryment" ( yes, I deliberately misspelled that one) they seem to have been offended by that particular day. I will not walk the line for a union that has at its main agenda (and spends my money on) dubious social issues and social engineering. Don't believe me? Andy Stern, president of SEIU, was recently given an award by the socialist party of America. Go on their web site and check it out yourself (Google the word "socialist party").

There are only three realistic options in this debate. 1. EMS should have no unions/ Associations at all.

2. EMS should be with unions/Associations that have nothing to do with EMS, or 3. EMS should have the option of joining a union that was started by Paramedics and EMT's FOR Paramedics and EMT's and doesn't spend your union dollar on "international rescue the fruit fly day"

Before we have made a collective decision to take ourselves seriously, all this yap about federal this and that and complaining about being redheaded stepchildren is pointless and a waste of time.

Sincerely, Hugo

[Dustdevil]

Amazing how you could take some much time and thought to put that all into type, and yet not give a single example of how this new union would be any better. Simply proving the old one sucked doesn't quite fit the bill.

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

Dear Nay-Sayers,

Perhaps, after all the years of being called "ambulance drivers", it seems some among us, still deserve the title.

For years, all of us have been complaining of being the "red headed stepchild" of EMS. We complained about low wages, benefits, etc. Some of us joined bus drivers unions, janitor unions, carpenters unions, government unions, you name it, to improve our standing. Then we all yap till the cows come home about a federal level post for EMS within DHS or HHS. SEIU (IAEP is a division of SEIU), spends $75 million dollars of union dues, trying to get Howard Dean and subsequently John Kerry elected. Meanwhile, Sacramento magazine in their latest issue reports that an EMT/Firefighter makes $73.000 dollars a year (approx.), while private industry paramedics not with AMR in the area start out less than a pimpled faced high school kid at a burger flipping joint.

We can yap all day on any forum about what professionals we all are and that's fine and dandy. But when you ask a paramedic if he or she feels like a "professional" making eight dollars an hour, while Skippy makes nine fifty, while asking you if "you want frys with that", then maybe that might put things in perspective for said medic.

Over 4000 EMT's and paramedics have joined NEMSA in less than a year and half (try and duplicate that. IAEP has had 15 years to make things happen and they've got only7500 members in those 15 years and soon to lose more, including their flag ship, Local 1 in Boston).

Let's assume that those aforementioned were dropped on their head at birth and therefore have an IQ of 5 ( I do not intend to offend anyone having been dropped on the head at birth, having an IQ of 5, or both).

What do the naysayers suggest we do to improve EMS then? Spend another $75 million dollars in the next presidential campaign? Dye our hair brown or blond so we can't be the redheaded stepchild anymore by definition? or how about joining the Boiler makers union, no wait, that's already been done, so never mind that one! How about joining the IAFF and trust that the firefighters will look out for us private EMS folks.

As for the argument that "international unions" are better for us because of the supposed "solidarity" we have with the other members of those unions. Give me a break. Are you honestly saying that hotel employees in Huston, Texas will show "solidarity" with striking EMS workers in New Jersey? Or think some Kaiser floor nurse in San Francisco will walk a picket line to support AMR employees in the same city. Dream on. Not going to happen. Except and I'll give you that, in France, where striking is considered an annual Olympic sport. But I tell you what. I'll walk the picket line for another EMT or medic in a heart beat in the US, so that he or she can provide a living for his or her family.

I will not walk the line for a union that blows millions of my union dollars on Howard Dean, no matter how much I like him, (or don't). I will not walk the line for unions that spent millions of my union dollar sending anti-war demonstrators to the streets "decrying" whatever "social injustice" and "disenfrenchfryment" ( yes, I deliberately misspelled that one) they seem to have been offended by that particular day. I will not walk the line for a union that has at its main agenda (and spends my money on) dubious social issues and social engineering. Don't believe me? Andy Stern, president of SEIU, was recently given an award by the socialist party of America. Go on their web site and check it out yourself (Google the word "socialist party").

There are only three realistic options in this debate. 1. EMS should have no unions/ Associations at all.

2. EMS should be with unions/Associations that have nothing to do with EMS, or 3. EMS should have the option of joining a union that was started by Paramedics and EMT's FOR Paramedics and EMT's and doesn't spend your union dollar on "international rescue the fruit fly day"

Before we have made a collective decision to take ourselves seriously, all this yap about federal this and that and complaining about being redheaded stepchildren is pointless and a waste of time.

Sincerely, Hugo

Hugo.

You've proven they suck. Show mke that you dont. You seem to do well at flaming IAEP / SEIU, lets be an adult and prove NEMSA. Til then, your just another Spammer.

PRPG

[cosgrojo]

Amazing how you could take some much time and thought to put that all into type, and yet not give a single example of how this new union would be any better. Simply proving the old one sucked doesn't quite fit the bill.

My point exactly. The pro-NEMSA guys are not giving any reason why NEMSA is a better choice. I know my current union stinks, and they piss money away like so much used water... but how can you prove that NEMSA won't either. I'm not anti-NEMSA, I'm anti lack of information. and the NEMSA people haven't given any.

[carl4nemsanw]

You guys are right, I can’t say that NEMSA has suddenly turned us in to "professionals" whatever that means today I think that in this day and age the word is somewhat overused.

Does anybody really believe that suddenly because NEMSA has few thousand members that we're all professionals? No and since “professional” doesn’t have a meaningful definition anymore will we ever really know when we’ve reached “professional” status? If an EMT basic gets hired and after 12 weeks of a fire academy is now a “professional” I would like to think that being a fulltime paramedic for 16 years would count for some sort of elevated status. Is a full time “professional” paramedic who also volunteer's for a service on the in their hometown suddenly non-professionals when they volunteer at home?

Getting to your concerns and specifically what has NEMSA does for anybody yet? Some of these improvements will be specific to our area.

1) In less than a week we have twice as many trained stewards as we had with the ATU, with the ATU we had county liaison positions go unfilled for months.

2) NEMSA has created interest in union activities.

3) NEMSA created a message board for our bargaining unit improving communication.

4) NEMSA’s bargaining rules are an improvement over our old ones.

5) There is also more interest in our upcoming contract negotiations than there ever has been.

6) NEMSA has improved our bargaining position because NEMSA already represents the 2 most successful bargaining units in AMR which are also in our region.

7) Communication between bargaining units not only for pay and benefits but for intangibles such as how much facial hair is acceptable in different areas.

8) We aren’t negotiating in a vacuum NEMSA already knows what to expect during negotiations.

9) Locally NEMSA has created interest in unionizing with other local company’s who are just waiting to see how well we do.

10) Strength in numbers, NEMSA has brought in 20% of the AMR workforce in a little over 2 years with more elections this year.

11) The very fact that we’re having this discourse is an improvement over where we were at just a few months ago.

This is not an all inclusive list and it will only continue to grow.

Does this mean every EMT and Paramedic is now a professional or that everybody will earn what San Mateo does? No, but give it a few years we do know that we haven’t gone anywhere with the unions that we’re in now.

As for the cost of living calculators on the internet are of dubious value, Google “the most overpriced cities” and Portland is number 3 behind Seattle and New York. I do know that I make less than every firefighter and nurse that I work with, I think when I intubate, medicate and start 2 IV’s on a patient and hand him off to 5 nurses and a doctor that I should be making more than I am now. I know my career will be longer than my friends at the fire department and they will taking home more money retired than I do working. I’m miffed that after 2 or 3 years firefighters make more than I do after 16.

Give NEMSA a few years if you want but we’re getting in on the ground floor.

Yes, the ATU was a bad union 3 years ago we got a 28% raise, we voted down a 24.4% raise with a 95% no vote and our 28% raise passed by 5 votes 198 to 193 after 3 or 4 days of "counting" I still haven't talked with 20 or 30 people who voted for it and I found out our contract passed on the evening news. If you have any doubts ask yourself why would we throw out a union that just got us a 30% raise? it wasnt because they were a good union or because we thought 30% was enough.

Atfer I wrote this I reread the string and to the Gentleman in Loneview Did you ever consider that financially maybe your better off than we are because you live 50 miles out of town (portland) in a town of 40,000 and make the same money we do? and you don't pay the 9% Oreogn Income tax on $52,000 a year is almost a whole months wages. (yes I know you have a sales tax) whats the average home price in longview verses Portland? or do a wage check for Longview verses Portland.

Carl

[Scaramedic]

Just for the record I wasn't taking sides either way. I was just noting the cost of living. I know this not just because of a web site but because I looked into working for San Fran DOH as a Paramedic years ago. I would be making more money, but would not even be able to live like I did in Portland because of the cost of housing in the San Fran metro area. I do not care what mags rate things as, I know it is more expensive to live in Northern California. I just used a website to quantify the difference.

I also know that Portland has a very volatile history when it comes to EMS. For those out of the area let me give you a little history about Portland EMS (Carl forgive me if I get the dates wrong). The city of Portland used to have three ambulance services and the city was divided roughly into three zones. AA ambulance in north/northeast, Care Ambulance in west Portland and Buck Ambulance in the southeast. In the early 90's AMR came to town and bought Buck and AA. They then got a contract to be the sole provider of 911 service in Multnomah county (Portland) eventually driving Care out of the ambulance biz. In about 1995 The Portland Fire Bureau made a bid to take over transport in Portland. The PFB even started hiring Paras and buying units. They lost this bid after a public outcry that forced a vote, a levy the PFB lost. In 1997 AMR almost went on strike, I cannot remember which union that was, I had left the Portland area by that time. I knew about the strike because I was working for EMSA who contracts with AMR, and there was talk about transferring me to back to Portland because I still had my Oregon cert. I know that their have been several unions at AMR, I also remember reading about the new contract signed by the ATU, that sounded like it was ugly too. I throw this history out there because it shows that it's not just about ATU vs NEMSA, turmoil in Portland EMS goes back for years.

As for me living in Longview, my wife and I moved back from Oklahoma to be closer to my parents whose health was failing, not to save money. I am an ex Paramedic, I am not working in Portland anymore. I foresee in the next six months of applying at AMR again, I am in the process of getting my cert back after it lapsed. As for the union situation I will wait and see what is like when I get there. I have worked both union and non-union jobs, both have positive and negatives.

I just wanted to respond and give a little history on the situation, I did not take it personally.

[cosgrojo]

Getting to your concerns and specifically what has NEMSA does for anybody yet? Some of these improvements will be specific to our area.

1) In less than a week we have twice as many trained stewards as we had with the ATU, with the ATU we had county liaison positions go unfilled for months.

2) NEMSA has created interest in union activities.

3) NEMSA created a message board for our bargaining unit improving communication.

4) NEMSA’s bargaining rules are an improvement over our old ones.

5) There is also more interest in our upcoming contract negotiations than there ever has been.

6) NEMSA has improved our bargaining position because NEMSA already represents the 2 most successful bargaining units in AMR which are also in our region.

7) Communication between bargaining units not only for pay and benefits but for intangibles such as how much facial hair is acceptable in different areas.

8) We aren’t negotiating in a vacuum NEMSA already knows what to expect during negotiations.

9) Locally NEMSA has created interest in unionizing with other local company’s who are just waiting to see how well we do.

10) Strength in numbers, NEMSA has brought in 20% of the AMR workforce in a little over 2 years with more elections this year.

11) The very fact that we’re having this discourse is an improvement over where we were at just a few months ago.

This is not an all inclusive list and it will only continue to grow.

Carl

OK..... great. Message boards and interest.... lovely. My point exactly. WHAT IS NEMSA BARGAINING FOR? That is the question that no one from NEMSA is answering. They are telling us about interest and programs for solidarity, but they are not telling us what specific ideas or issues that they are going to take up better than the last union. I (and others who seem to be confounded) am not looking to see another NEMSA brochure regurgitated on the internet... I'm looking for what their goals are, what their points of emphasis are, what will they be able to get into the CBA that the last guys couldn't get. Do they know? Or are they just creating a ferver with broad stroke political tactics?

Again, I'm not against NEMSA... I don't know anything about them!!! They don't seem to know anything about themselves. I think that it's great that they are solidifying and improving support for their union in many areas, but I want to know what they are going to do with my support. It appears to me that they are simply creating a movement without setting specific goals for their specific area conquests. Each area, each sector, each region all have specific and unique challenges from one another. I am not a fan of cookie cutter thinking affecting my contract negotiations. Give me facts, and tell me how you plan to attack the specific needs of my local working area. Then you might get me to come along for the ride.

[Dustdevil]

Exactly, Cosgro. Still not a single bit of evidence or information indicating they will do, or even have the potential to do, anything more than their predecessor. This looks more like a case of "throw the bums out" than any intelligent campaign of improvement. In fact, everything laid out above looks like the same old things every union does for the sake of appearances, or simply to perpetuate their own existence. Typical politics.

The whole discussion of professionalism is a joke and a red herring. I know of no instance anywhere in US history where a union has transformed any job into a profession. How much you make and how good your benefits are have zero bearing on your status as a "professional." The guys who sit in a glass booth and sell subway tokens have a great union, and they probably make more than twice what you do too. So does that make them "professionals"? Give me a break.

YOU decide whether or not YOU are a professional or not. Nobody else. And WE as a group of individuals will determine the future of this job, and whether or not it ever becomes a "profession" by our own actions and by encouraging lawmakers and educators to improve our standards. That is nothing that any union can or even would consider doing. Never have. Never will. Their sole purpose is to have an adversarial relationship with "the man," which only perpetuates our non-professional status.

If you want to whine and moan and stomp your feet about the raw deal you're getting from AMR because YOU made a poor career choice and now can't afford to drive a new pickup truck like all the firemen or take your family to Disneyland every year, more power to you. I have no problem with that. It's every man for himself. But at least be honest about it. Any claim that you're trying to transform our profession is utter bollocks.