Resuscitate of SIDS

[aussiephil]

Not to mention that your kind of keeping a truck out of service that could be out helping someone else while you work a SIDS child.

Is that really relevant, what about the possibility that u as a medical person may be the one the parents focus on, not for answers, but for some initial support until family arrive, & what if they r in need of medical care as well. This seems to be an uncaring attitude Nate. I look at SIDS cases in that we have multiple patients, not just the deceased. Mum & Dad, other siblings, even some extended family need to be taken into account, as well as any cultural issues. As ems, medics or whatever we are called, we need to ensure that at every scene, no matter what we address ALL patients, whether they have what we consider to be an obvious injury or illness or not. Have you taken into account that the mother my have, or this may be the trigger for post natal depression. Your attitude concerns me Jake.

[TalkEMS]

Is that really relevant

Sadly.... Yes, it is relevant many places across America that have limited ALS resources. Keeping a ALS provider out of service for an extended time to hold hands and wipe tears will do nobody any good. Their healing process is going extend past your tour of duty and I doubt they'll offer you overtime.... do what you can, call who you need to call, and get back in service ...

As for working a dead child?

While I understand compassion for the family - dead is dead. A grandstand performance may save them from dealing with reality for a few more minutes but the fact will remain the same. Call me what you will but I would rather have the truth than false hope.

Matt

[aussiephil]

Sadly.... Yes, it is relevant many places across America that have limited ALS resources. Keeping a ALS provider out of service for an extended time to hold hands and wipe tears will do nobody any good. Their healing process is going extend past your tour of duty and I doubt they'll offer you overtime.... do what you can, call who you need to call, and get back in service ...

Matt I understand what you are saying, however you really didn't read what I said. Sometimes as ems we need to look past the obvious & see that there may be something else there, maybe we are lucky here because we can make that call if we feel that the parents need us. However, I think that if we maintain a callous attitude to death, then it is time to give the game away. This family will look to you to hold their hand for a short time & ensure that they are OK both physically & mentally. Yes mentally, the one area of health we all like to forget because its too hard. We all relate to death differently & to assume that one can just walk away from a death of a child & just carry on without any sort of debreif is taking you on a course for disaster & self destruction.

[hfdff422]

Sadly.... Yes, it is relevant many places across America that have limited ALS resources. Keeping a ALS provider out of service for an extended time to hold hands and wipe tears will do nobody any good. Their healing process is going extend past your tour of duty and I doubt they'll offer you overtime.... do what you can, call who you need to call, and get back in service ...

I agree that in a place where ALS is scarce, they should go back into service as soon as possible. But any BLS provider that responds should be willing to stay as long as necessary. At least until family or a chaplain arrives.

[Ridryder 911]

Okay let's look at the stats at this time of the posting

Yes, I would for the chance of survival

5% [ 2 ]

Yes, I would for the parents sake... some closure

30% [ 12 ]

No, I would not. It gives false hopes and burden of cost, etc

42% [ 17 ]

No, dead is dead.. no matter if it is pediatric or adult

22% [ 9 ]

So apparently we have 5% that does not know what conclusive signs of death are or will work anything.. sorry patients with rigor does not need to be worked.. you will look like an idiot because you are one.

30% will work them because it will make them feel better, although they know that the child will not survive and you are giving false hopes and a LARGE EMS & ER bill.. yeah. your compassionate...

42% Think about the true patient & will give thought to the family.

22% have straight direct approach

Interesting we still do not see more post on validating, why they would attempt resuscitation ?

Be safe,

R/R 911

[Ace844]

Okay let's look at the stats at this time of the posting

Yes, I would for the chance of survival

5% [ 2 ]

Yes, I would for the parents sake... some closure

30% [ 12 ]

No, I would not. It gives false hopes and burden of cost, etc

42% [ 17 ]

No, dead is dead.. no matter if it is pediatric or adult

22% [ 9 ]

So apparently we have 5% that does not know what conclusive signs of death are or will work anything.. sorry patients with rigor does not need to be worked.. you will look like an idiot because you are one.

30% will work them because it will make them feel better, although they know that the child will not survive and you are giving false hopes and a LARGE EMS & ER bill.. yeah. your compassionate...

42% Think about the true patient & will give thought to the family.

22% have straight direct approach

Interesting we still do not see more post on validating, why they would attempt resuscitation ?

Be safe,

R/R 911

Today's EMTCITY '"Dr Feel Better" award and reciepient of a perscription for the Paxil-Serequel coctail of the day is.... "RidRyder"!!!! :wink: :wink: 8) :!: :!:

[mediccjh]

Dead is dead.

The important thing on the scene is your attitude towards the parents. If you are calm, cool, and professional, the parents WILL remember that, and it will help in their healing process.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Well personal experience here.

Call on a 8 month old non breather, found between the bed and the wall - stiff as a board

PD there first, we were about 3 minutes out - CPR Started by PD

PD ran to the ambulance and gave us the kid

WE just put the kid in back, had 3 medics and driver so there were three of us back there.

WE worked the kid to the ER and called her about 20 minutes after arrival

WE worked her because cpr was started and we didn't see the child prior to arrival

Another kid we did not work was the one we found in the crib, parents there, screaming for us to save their baby. The child had obvious signs of death, livor, rigor etc.

Parents threw a fit, yelled screamed yet when we got them calmed down they understood why we didn't work thier little angel

It was one of the hardest call of my life cause I knew the parents YET we didn't work the child cause it was fruitless.

[jmac]

i must say ruffems that is the best response post to this i have seen, as for the poll and some of the comments, this leads me to some questions of my own,

is the poll there so that some people can just redicule others on why they would or would not resus, in my opinion the poll is flawed, it talks about dead infants...about SIDS, nothing about time factors, how long the infant is down.

signs incompatible, if anyone who replied to theis topic does not recognise them and would attempt resus, they are in the wrong job, we are supposed to be professional here regardless of level, some infants have survived the symptems of SIDS and been resussed.

the way i look at it is simple, i do not call an infant dead because they are not breathing and dont have a pulse or signs of life, signs incompatible well and good but if the signs are not there i resus, as for getting back on the road ASAP, thats a very callous and unprofessional attitude in my opinion, you can only do one call at a time so deal with the one you are on.

if people come on scene and just look at the infant check pupils, listen with a stet and call it well and good, they do not start resus, thats their call, but if you want a poll and discussion about infant resus...have one but get the parameters set first, this is getting silly,

keep safe.

[Ridryder 911]

I guess jmac, you don't seem to understand one it is is resuscitation, not resus, two the poll is to make some EMT' aware (newbies, students) to use common sense. Not everything is black & white like in the textbooks. The poll came from an idea off another thread. This is not a scientfic data collecting, for studies so parameters etc. is not needed.. this is an EMS forum, get real.

I see countless EMS bring in SIDS only for the physician to immediately stop and pronounce.. Now, we have to explain in nice terms that the EMT were dumb-asses and should had never started and gave false hope, No they really did not know what they were doing. Have the M.E. now, try to get all the information from the infant, go back to the scene, etc... Then in 2 weeks they get a EMS bill, an ER bill... yes even if we did nothing they were brought in as a code.. about at least $500.

A little awareness. Again, if the child is in cardiac arrest and there is NOT conclusive signs, that is another matter and a different scenario.

If I have more that encounter with the same medic doing the same thing, I contact their EMS division for retraining, if this is not successful I contact the board for license review & formal investigation. Insensitivity to the family and not treating the patient appropriate (yes, coding when it should not be done). Even in BLS/CPR classes it discusses that NO resuscitation should be attempted on signs of conclusive death. Just because it is an infant makes NO difference.

We try to educate and make EMT's aware on this site. To promote discussion at work, look outside the cookie cutter approach.. there are some that make few calls, or have little experience. To think "outside the box'....