Do EMTs have the right to correct a paramedic?

[Ridryder 911]

. We are allowing for this standard of care to continue Rid, and if you hate the laws get em changed..

I am trying.. but, alas others & I have been shot down by other special groups.. we won't even mention (hint : they don't get paid to be EMT's :wink: ) When the National Scope of Practice came for review, this was our chance to progress... but; heck no!.. It was our own stupid medics that did not take action. ( I use stupid instead of ignorant, because they knew better). Well, we lost the golden egg... now, it has been passed over to other medical professionals to be evaluated and EMS may never be able to recover professional or financially. By expanding the role & increasing then by requiring at least a minimal an associate degree, this would had secured the role of the Paramedic from the technician level, and proposed ALS to majority of the U.S. So yet again, it was our fault.. our poor lazy apathetic fault.

Each day, someone has an AMI and there is no Paramedic to respond, or that trauma patient that needed the chest decompression to survive and was not performed...it is all of our own faults.

So while we "feel good" about ourselves because we "responded" ... pat each other on the back for a job well done.. & read one of those god forsaken hero poems (boy talk about id ego's) .. let's think & remember about those patients that died because they needed more than BLS before ALS but did not receive it... !

Don't believe me. medics are ignorant on their own profession ? The next time you work with EMT's or medics.. ask them to describe who is currently in charge of overseeing the "National EMS Regulations" ? Second question: What is the current status of the National Scope of Practice for EMS ?... Okay, did they get that right?.... Did you ?.. Hey, it is your profession, you don't know ?... and no I won't tell you.. look it up (you tend to remember it longer that way).

P. S. please don't brag about a class that is in clock hours.. you only insult yourself & those that are professionals. Professionals never give their credentials in clock hours.. look at it this way, if it is in clock hours.. chances are it was not a true educational credit, rather a training session. Professionals refer to their degrees (MBA, MS, PhD, etc..) publications, research, achievements, when patting themselves on their back. Can you imagine hearing a physician stating " I have over 125,000 hours of training.

For those that are not aware, yes people DO pay attention whom is working on them. Ever see advertisements of ER's ?... "Board Certified ER physicians, Board Certified Plastic Surgeon"...etc Why would hospitals pay the additional $50-$100, 000 a year. I can assure you it is not for their own health and no most states do not require the ER Doc's to be board certified ER.

Problem is most medics don't want to hear the truth.. if is not about the "feel good", blood & guts (as long as it not in to medical detail) or what Basic EMT's_ XYZ can do.. or how they saved lives with "diesel medicine" .. wow that makes me think we really have advanced. Our profession has problems, thus forums designed to discuss .. hash, bring up ideas, gripe and yes once in a while congratulate..

Ever looked at other medical forums.. I have participated & they are brutal on professional ethics..

Sorry, crappy day.. gave a eulogy on a true EMS pioneer. We both had dreams of EMS "growing up!".. shame, it has not yet occurred 30 years later.

R/r 911

[Michael]

"One of the symptoms of approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important, and that to take a holiday would bring all kinds of disaster. If I were a medical man, I should prescribe a holiday to any patient who considered his work important." ~ Bertrand Russell

[EMT City Administrator]

Lets get back on topic please....

Admin

[JPINFV]

You know, I remember one of the ones on Traumacentral. I was all pissed off about it because I was a wet behind the ears basic (pet peeve: EMT-P, EMT-B both EMTs. I'd rather be called "just a basic" then "just an EMT") and thought the same. After working part time (full time college student), I realize there is a problem.

Ok, preface, I work for probably the world's worse IFT company. Hey, they pay the most and are willing to work with my schedule.

(Dust, read the whole post before commenting, we all know you're views on IFTs)

There is a problem with a basic who think they can do discharges with a patient on a albuterol breathing treatment because they didn't start it (medico-legal/scope).

There is a problem when a basic call for an ALS unit when they are 0.4 miles away from one of the best hospitals in the area (500+ beds, ER almost never closes), thus delaying both ALS and definitive care (protocol education).

There is a problem when basics think that the trendelenburg position is great for a patients BP but has never heard the term "starling effect." (education problem)

There is a problem when the basic training is 120 hours, mostly based on trauma (come on, most of the work is medical to begin with). Even then, I could have sworn I learnt over half this stuff as a boy scout. (education and emphasis problem)

There is a problem when basics want to use [insert random gizmo, pulse ox is the favorite here] yet have no idea what would give you a false reading and/or think it is a hypoxia detector (grant it, based on a recent post, this last one is popular with ALS at times as well [*cough* cyanide affects cytocrome C, not oxygen saturation])

I personally, feel educated enough for BLS. By educated, I mean almost 3 years of college level courses [biochem, genetics, upper division cell bio, upper division physiology, etc] that backs up the very basic and almost useless information given to me in my basic class. I know that I've diverted to closer hospitals because of my education or hospital volunteering experiences. Unfortunately, from what I have seen on this and other boards I seem to be the exception rather then the rule for BLS.

If I had my way, EMT-Basic would become EMT-IFT. No lights, no sirens. Just a van, a gurney, a tank of O2, and some isolation supplies. This is the minimum standard to take granny for dialysis or do that hospice discharge.

EMT-I is the new EMT-Basic, minimum staffing level on an ambulance. Someone who can do more then say, "Here’s a NRB."

If California had widespread use of intermediates, I would have highly considered it. Unfortunately, most parts of California is basic or paramedic (and where I am, paramedic=fire department).

[EMT City Administrator]

Again.. lets get on topic...

[ncmedic309]

I've been reading this forum for a few years, and just now decided to register... Seems to be the popular thing to bash anyone for any reason. Ask a question, get bashed, flamed, or called an idiot.

As long as you’re not a volunteer (doubly bad if you're from New Jersey); a Basic EMT (god forbid a first responder); thin-skinned or highly self conscious; have poor grammar or spelling skills; or basically do not know less than the first person who replies... You'll be okay.

Used to be much worse! A few people left, started bashing on other forums; emtlife, trauma central, ems village, etc. Same crap, same people; just makes the place more interesting. Prolly the only reason I come back to read it a couple times a month. Almost like real life, except I don't think anyone on here has killed another user, yet..?

There are some people here (and everywhere else) that seem to think others are inferior to them because they don't have as many years of service or don't have the same certifications/licensure/degrees as they do. They disagree with anyone and everyone if it isn't done their way and won't hesitate to bash/attack another member if you disagree or do it differently. Fortunately the number of those people are fairly small and leave little impact on things. Remember, just because a person has more years of experience or a higher certification doesn't mean they know what they are doing and it certainly makes them no better than anyone else.

[medic001918]

First of all, AMEN to rid. As usual a well informed and thought out post. Very well done.

Here's my question, how did we go from questioning a medics decision, to BLS bashing? Basic skills are important, do you medics remember them??? A B C's??? Without them you have nothing, and all your monitoring, IV skills and drug pushing mean absolutely nothing if you don't have a viable patient. I am so relieved to know that 500+ hours of education that I have had, in order to be able to help someone in their time of need, can be so belittled and meaningless to the medics that I work with, or the medics from all over the world. It does my heart good to know that I, as a basic EMT, is lower than dirt to them, and am only good enough to drive them to the hospital. Thanks so much for that, and if this attitude is what comes with being a medic, you can keep it.

Now, on to this comment. Basic's do have a place in the prehospital system. I work with a rather competent basic and he is a valuable asset to the truck. But to ask if a medic remember's the ABC's is kind of off topic. As a medic, ABC's should be at the top of the list. This isn't something that a medic should have to look at their basic partner to do. It should be done by both providers and without hesitation. As an ALS provider, it is BLS before ALS. But there comes a point when BLS isn't enough to get the job done. As a paramedic one can move on provide the extended care and advanced procedures required. I never belittle my partner and I'm the first to admit that he is very helpful to getting the job done. But a basic has their limits. Just as a paramedic does. That's why we transport patients to the hospital, so that they can reach the next teir when we've reached our limits. The hospital staff can do more than we can. It's all about knowing your limits and doing the best that you can within them. And the current BLS curriculum is extremely limited providing minimal (at best) interventions that can be performed for a patient.

Shane

NREMT-P

[EMT City Administrator]

I guess the other two requests to keep this on topic did not matter....

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