Admissions Criteria

[Dustdevil]

Okay, so you are the big-shot director of admissions for the local paramedic patch factory. You have five times as many people applying for each class as there are seats, so keeping the classes full is not an issue. And you have no contracts, agreements, or obligations to accept all comers from any group or agency. So here is your mission:

Tell me how you decide who gets in. By what objective and subjective criteria do you judge applicants?

• Experience? How much and what type?

Job status? Are those currently in EMS given preference to those working non-emergency or in another field?

Prerequisites? How much and what type?

Education? Their high school GPA? Their college transcript? Is more always better? Does the MA in Fine Arts get preference over the third year Biology major?

Aptitude testing or intelligence? What kind?

Medical knowledge testing? Who makes the test and what sort of test is it?

Skills testing? What kind?

Personality or psychological testing? Specifics?

Physical condition or agility testing? What type, and who sets the standards? How?

Drug testing? Urine screening, that is.

Criminal history check? What disqualifies and what does not disqualify?

Personal interviews? What do you want to ask them? What answers do you want to hear? What answers do you NOT want to hear? What do you want them to ask you?

Letters of recommendation? From whom would it make a difference?

Time on the waiting list? Does an applicant who was qualified this time, but was not admitted for lack of space, get preference next semester?

• Any and all other criteria you might consider when doing admissions, I would like to hear about and thoroughly discussed.

What I would not like is for a lot of counter discussion and people's opinions of other people's criteria. Just say your piece and leave it at that, although I encourage you to come back if you think of more things to add later.

Thanks!

[AnatomyChick]

Dust,

I don't run a Paramedic Program, but I'll tell you what I do for the EMT-B Program.

Experience? How much and what type? Sometimes experience on a Fire / Rescue Department is a plus, and sometimes it just depends on what volunteer service they work for. Prior First Responder Course under their belt is always in their favor.

Job status? Are those currently in EMS given preference to those working non-emergency or in another field? N/A for my EMT-B Class

Prerequisites? How much and what type? As stated previous EMS Classes or CE's are a bonus, but not a "guaranteed qualifier".

Education? Their high school GPA? Their college transcript? Is more always better? Does the MA in Fine Arts get preference over the third year Biology major? I do require a copy of the HS Diploma or HS Transcript (or GED Equivalent), and don't accept students who don't have those.

Aptitude testing or intelligence? What kind? Nope, though I HAVE toyed with the idea

Medical knowledge testing? Who makes the test and what sort of test is it? Nope

Skills testing? What kind? Nope

Personality or psychological testing? Specifics? Nope, but we do have a 5 person panel that interviews each applicant, attempts to get a "feel" for their personality...

Physical condition or agility testing? What type, and who sets the standards? How? Not at this time, but I've contemplated this as well.

Drug testing? Urine screening, that is. Nope

Criminal history check? What disqualifies and what does not disqualify? Nope, not required at this time... required by the state prior to licensing though

Personal interviews? What do you want to ask them? What answers do you want to hear? What answers do you NOT want to hear? What do you want them to ask you? We usually give a brief overview of what we expect from students in the program and them ask them the basics.. "why do you want to be an EMT?", "What do you think an EMT does?", "can you lift and carry 75 pounds, 35 feet or more?". We want them to ask US about any misgivings they have about the class.. what they might be worried about, etc. We also want them to tell us about their family obligations, but we NEVER ask those questions.

Letters of recommendation? From whom would it make a difference? If they are with a local Fire / Rescue Dept, they get a discount for a letter of recommendation from their Chief.

Time on the waiting list? Does an applicant who was qualified this time, but was not admitted for lack of space, get preference next semester? I don't keep a waiting list, but I will keep a list of those who "came close", and if someone drops out early in the program (within 3 classes), I'll call that person up and offer them the class.

That's just a little of what I do. We've had fairly good luck with it... once they're in, we run a pretty tight ship.

[Nate]

Job status? Are those currently in EMS given preference to those working non-emergency or in another field?

You once pointed out that we should move towards what nursing does. Where you go in off the street as a nobody and come out a nurse (paramedic in our case). I agree with you on that, so I do not feel that preference should be given to those currently involved in the field. We could be passing up much better students.

Prerequisites? How much and what type?

I think that prerequisites are important, some that MUST be added are as follows:

[*]Biology

[*]A&P

[*]Chemistry

[*]Organic Chemistry

[*]Medical Terminology

[*]Medical Law Class

[*]English

[*]At least Trig, there is so much more to math then just numbers

[*]Physics

[*]Psychology

[*]Sociology

[*]Child/Human Development Psychology

[*]Speech (because there is nothing worse then not knowing how to speak properly

[*]Economics (you need to know how to manage money, epically if your going to be in upper management)

[*]Government, one must know how governments work

[*]History is important because to many people don't grasp why history is important and is needed for any degree

Paramedic should be the crowning "jewel" of the education, not the only education.

Education? Their high school GPA? Their college transcript? Is more always better? Does the MA in Fine Arts get preference over the third year Biology major?

I do not believe that a Fine Arts background is nearly as good as a biology major. I would suggest that the preference be given based upon academic performance in the fields of interest similar to what is currently done.

Aptitude testing or intelligence? What kind?

One would to be developed around the paramedic field, but I think that aptitude testing is needed because it gives you a way to "remove" those who you need to remove. They also show a level of dedication, as those who REALLY want it will study to do well on that test, as opposed to blowing it off.

Medical knowledge testing? Who makes the test and what sort of test is it?

Skills testing? What kind?

If we are starting from the ground up, then this isn't important as these skills should be taught to them. If they are coming off the streets as an EMT-B or EMT-I, then we run into the issue of "I was never taught that." How can we hold it against them what another school/service failed to honestly teach them?

Personality or psychological testing? Specifics?

This is important, as you know EMS doesn't have the most stable people working in it. Those ego hungry ass-hats need to be weeded out to prevent further damage to the industry. Also, those who are weak, or would be effected emotionally easily should be removed. There is a difference between caring and being weak.

Physical condition or agility testing? What type' date=' and who sets the standards? How?[/quote']

Physical agility is important, however it wouldn't be a bad idea to add some kind of "PE" class to the paramedic education. Some tests could include:

[*]5K run

[*]Lift test

[*]Carry test

[*]Stair climb

[*]Cardio/Pulmon work out, can they do CPR for 2 minutes?

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

Experience? How much and what type? 3 years basic time

Job status? Are those currently in EMS given preference to those working non-emergency or in another field? Preference to 911, then transfer. This can be tweaked by provider. Each experience is different to the person.

Prerequisites? How much and what type?

A/P-1, A/P-2, technical writing, communication based electives, 2 advanced science of choice.

Education? Their high school GPA? Their college transcript? Is more always better? Does the MA in Fine Arts get preference over the third year Biology major?

This will vary by applicant. Science trumps fine arts.

Aptitude testing or intelligence? What kind? Entry exam in reading, math, and english. Weed out the McDonalds bound superstars.

Medical knowledge testing? Who makes the test and what sort of test is it? no.

Skills testing? What kind? Retest BLS practical.

Personality or psychological testing? Specifics? no.

Physical condition or agility testing? What type, and who sets tho.e standards? How? Yes. Similar to fire department agility, but toned down a bit. Being that im the boss, I set the standards. Mwahahahaha.

Drug testing? Urine screening, that is. YES!

Criminal history check? What disqualifies and what does not disqualify? Misdemeanors and felonies bad, others acceptable with explanation, case by case.

Personal interviews? What do you want to ask them? What answers do you want to hear? What answers do you NOT want to hear? What do you want them to ask you?

This is huge. I want to know their full background, work ethic, questions relevant to scholastic experience, how they work with others. I need people who will work, work well with others, be ready to steer their future, and geared towards advancing their careers.

Letters of recommendation? From whom would it make a difference? these are overrated.

Time on the waiting list? Does an applicant who was qualified this time, but was not admitted for lack of space, get preference next semester? no bearing on admissions.

[Ridryder 911]

All applicants will be on point system. The more points, the higher the chance one will have to be able to attend. Each system would be weighed on importance of the section.

Experience? How much and what type?

Preferred EMS with one to two year level experience. Not required but preferred, with recommendation letters from EMS crew members, Supv. & Administrator, and EMS physician. Not just he/she's a good person, but specific regarding critical thinking instances, etc.. Hospital. dependent on area of work, responsibility, Fire/ Rescue less point(s) than EMS, but has some merit.

Job status? Are those currently in EMS given preference to those working non-emergency or in another field? Dependent on job requirements, to be reviewed on individual basis.

Prerequisites? How much and what type?

All general education requirements must have been completed or majority before entering advance portion. Mandatory science course(s) of Anatomy and Physiology or A & P /II with individual labs each.. Human anatomy cadaver lab, extra point. Basic Microbiology or Chemistry. Advance mathematics classes above college Algebra as well advanced chemistry is irrelevant to the EMS profession. More emphasis on communications, psychology, and basic sciences.

**Must pass the following to even be considered : Nelson Denny Reading Placement Test with at least a Sophomore College level reading level, Basic Mathematics (College Level Algebra), Critical Thinking Test, Modern Language Assessment Test with at least Sophomore Level Placement.

(** Must have completed this even for Basic level EMT course)

Education? Their high school GPA? Their college transcript? Is more always better? Does the MA in Fine Arts get preference over the third year Biology major?

Must have at least general education as described. GPA must be at least 3.50 with courses less < than 3.0 not counted as cumulative GPA. College Transcript will evaluated on one on one basis. Science course would be given higher score level, however a completion of under or graduate degree will be given higher points.

Aptitude testing or intelligence? What kind?

As noted above reading, science, critical thinking skills exam as well as mathematics.

Medical knowledge testing? Who makes the test and what sort of test is it?

Two medical tests. (1) EMS (2) General medical knowledge. There are plenty of test on the market with reliability for testing. Again each segment would be based upon point system.

Skills testing? What kind?

Basic skills on patient assessment (with differential scenario of medical vs. trauma), standard testing of splinting KED , oxygen & resuscitation skills (including use of basic airway & oxygen administration)

Personality or psychological testing? Specifics ?

No. But a personal interview with an EMS academic counselor suggesting history or problems in this area is highly non-suggestive in the work force.

Physical condition or agility testing? What type, and who sets the standards? How?

No, but strong emphasis would be placed on the ability to lift weight at least 150 pounds to waist level. Scenario base lab skills will be required for class and must be able to perform without concerns to pass the required lab sessions of Paramedic class.

I do not believe in agility testing of medics, we are not military, firefighters or police officers. We are medical personal. Our main performance of job requirements does not require running, sprinting. Majority of response calls is ability to lift and carry. Morbidity obesity is discouraged, and prudent living should be enouraged.

Drug testing? Urine screening, that is.

No, cannot legally perform. But as outlined history of drug, or any substance abuse could lead the student not to be tested for licensure

Criminal history check? What disqualifies and what does not disqualify?

At this time all schools that have patient interaction require a FBI and usually State Investigation, some even require financial investigation as well. Students with a criminal history will be explored as for reasons stated. No reason for a potential student not being eligible to take the Boards.

Personal interviews? What do you want to ask them? What answers do you want to hear? What answers do you NOT want to hear? What do you want them to ask you?

If you were not allowed to enter, what would you do ?

Why they want to enter advanced level program ?

What is their expectation of being a Paramedic ?

What does professionalism mean to them ?

What is their goals?

What would be their favorite type of call ?

Social interaction question(s) No wrong or right answer..

Critical thinking skills .. generalized on life...may not be related to EMS at all

The best things in life ... the worst things

Answers I don't want to hear :

I want to help other people

I want to be " any of the following: I am taking this because I want to be: " a firefighter, to Volunteer, medical school, nursing school, get onto a helicopter, use as a stepping stone..

can't wait to : start I.V's, intubate, shock someone, give medications.... !

Letters of recommendation? From whom would it make a difference?

As noted above. Reference letters will have an outline, not a blanket "they are a good person. Specific reason(s) why they think they should be allowed to go forward in their career. What type of care they currently perform, specific areas of strengths and weakness. Letters should reflect that the person actually know and is aware of the applicant and that their reputation of recommending such person is being trusted. A verbal reference may take place from the instructor talking one on one with one of the reference person(s).

Time on the waiting list? Does an applicant who was qualified this time, but was not admitted for lack of space, get preference next semester?

Just because there is no room for the applicant, the applicant should not be penalized. The next opening the applicant should have first choice, if however; they decline, such applicant would have to re-submit with all re-application testing.

Any and all other criteria you might consider when doing admissions, I would like to hear about and thoroughly discussed.

There should be a formal process. Not just "pay" for the class. Interview and thorough discussion of the advanced level program should be made with instructor or coordinator of the program. Questions about the program, and a "no-bar" explanation of the demands of the program and expectations of the student responsibilities. Students should had prepare questions to be asked.

Students will be prepared that a 15% "wash-out" might occur. The students will recognize that study time, library and research will be required as intense clinical skills and demand. Staright honest discussion of EMS will mede such as pay structures, working envitroment, and expectancy of career, etc.

As well, the student should recognize they will receive formal education, professor or instructors with a high level of knowledge and expertise in that field, and have the expectation that they will pass the license and board without extensive external programs. Job placement will be encouraged by the institution as much as possible.

Be safe,

R/r 911

[AnatomyChick]

UGH.. I DETEST the "I want to get on a Paid Fire Dept.".... make me crazy...

[JPINFV]

I think that prerequisites are important, some that MUST be added are as follows:

[*]Biology umm, I guess it depends on the classes. anywhere between 1-2 years for the basics (intro, evolution, genetics, biochem, molecular bio, and bio writing [think lab reports] are the core bio classes, in order, at my school. We use the quarter system, so it looks longer)

[*]A&P 2 quarters or 1 semester depending on school (its split at mine)

[*]Chemistry year long

[*]Organic Chemistry year long

[*]Medical Terminology not offered, so 1 quarter

[*]Medical Law Class not offered, but I'm guessing quarter long again

[*]English year long

[*]At least Trig, there is so much more to math then just numbers umm, can't comment on post-secondary requirement

[*]Physics year long

[*]Psychology year long

[*]Sociology year long

[*]Child/Human Development Psychology quarter long (my school has both upper and lower divisions...)

[*]Speech (because there is nothing worse then not knowing how to speak properly not offered, guessing quarter long

[*]Economics (you need to know how to manage money, epically if your going to be in upper management) year

[*]Government, one must know how governments work quarter long

[*]History is important because to many people don't grasp why history is important and is needed for any degree year long

Ok, the bold is whats offered at my school. It is on the quarter system and there are three quarters to a year (summer session makes it 4, but its not included in tuition).

While more education is never bad, there can be too much as a prereq (think about rolling some of these into your program instead of being a -prereq). That's 36 courses, not including labs (2 quarters of labs for physics, G-chem, and O-Chem...). At 4 courses a quarter, that's 3 years of school, unless you are willing to count high school courses for the science courses (I wouldn't). These requirements, by comparison, are over twice as much as required by the standard medical school (year of bio, year of G-chem, year of O-Chem, year of math. requirements vary). This, of course, isn't counting the other breadth requirements the school might require (foreign language, international issues, intercultural studies, humanities, etc). You would be hard pressed to finish in 4 years because of the unaddressed upper-division course.

Should para-medicine go towards a graduate level and/or multilevel education level style of certification/education (think nursing on this one. They have certificate, ASN, BS-nursing, MSN, advanced practice, and starting to develop doctorate levels of education)? In the long run, yes. That said, it would be hard to attract a college level graduate with $10-40k+ in debt as it is.

Also the multi-level approach allows better access to those already out of college. If I want to go into nursing after I graduate, I don't have to start at the lowest level. I can always take a MSN-entry program. First year gets the nursing license. The next year or two is the masters level of education.

Another option is to pressure your local university to start a medic program. Its time to expand BS-Para-medicine past only a hand full of schools. Some of these classes need to be put into the medic education. Have the first two years focus on the holistic education (the entry sciences [physics, g-chem, intro bio, etc], the medico legal, the communication, and the rest of the breadth). The next two years are the paramedic education.

recap. Its not that I'm against education, but lets make it some where reasonable.

[Ridryder 911]

Actually one cannot enter nursing that easy.. even with a degree or even a master degree. Also, it is usually a 2 year class as well. The Doctorate level can be in education, but most are focusing in Doctorate in Nursing Science itself. (DNSc) This is usually referred to research, or some programs have now expanded it to nurse practitioner, clinical specialist and some nurse anesthesist programs.

I can tell some of you are pre-med... the typical semester long off medico-legal is a waste of time.. If a law suit or litigation is to occur, you do like every other physician have malpractice insurance and an attorney on retainer. More emphasis on proper documentation, education, and TQI with effective communication skills stops patients from litigation's. Remember Rule Number 1 .. patients don't usually sue Dr.'s they like.... that is why litigation's occur more and more . physicians sometime loose site of being human....

Organic chem, trig is nice education, but again a waste of time in application of the role of the Paramedic. Again, cadaver anatomy, more in-depth respiratory, cardiac, and kinesiolgy would be more appropriate as well as medical terminology. Expand the pulmonolgy/cardiology to one year in length. Ask a physician how often they use most of the B.S . classes like History of Medicine or even embryology.. the will tell they wished they had more applicable classes. I would suggest a basic statistics course and basic research, so interpretation of B.S. research can be interpreted and identified in Journals, so things are not taken at face value.

Right now, there is no application for EMS/ B.S. Research requires at least graduate level to successful conduct research findings. Until we have developed the need and the mechanism to utilize graduate levels, we have to have our EMS personnel with associated graduate degrees or Doctorates. Again, most will monitored by physician level anyway.

I would again be happy to see a required associate degree level for entry level. Get rid of the 6'th grade EMT books and the junior high Paramedic "book"... even the author hates, himself.

Yes, it is nice to dream... but I would prefer to make it more workable program so the medics could get a job ...

R/r 911

[JPINFV]

Sorry about that. I wasn't trying to imply that the entry level MSN program was easy to get into (heck, most do have greater pre-reqs then med school too. Microbio with lab seems to be a unifying theme), but it was an available choice for a person with a BS already. I also wasn't trying to imply that DNSc (I didn't know the acronym at the time) equaled a MD or DO. Yet its available for advancement if a nurse chooses to utilize it (grant it, my understanding is that the DNSc is controversial too). The O-Chem point is funny because it actually came up with when I was getting my DOT physical. I believe that O-Chem is like physics. A doctor doesn't use most of what is taught (the doctor doesn't need to know, physically speaking, how the electronics in a monitor or defibrillator works. He just needs to know how/when/physio how/etc it works). Its the critical thinking skills used in mechanisms and problem solving that is more important.

Now the big question (I love questions that challenge the status quo). Why aren't more paramedics involved in research? You want more toys and protocols? See a need in your patient population for something? See a procedure/protocol that might work better (example, opti-con no L/S vs L/S transport maybe)? Develop a research thesis and start a study on it. I agree, as it is now paramedicine doesn't require very much formal education. More is good, but you will eventually get diminishing returns. That said, nothing will change until someone decides to advance themselves.

[Asysin2leads]

Experience? How much and what type?

A year of EMT work, have a trauma call, maybe a code if possible, and a couple of assessments under the old belt. But I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

Job status? Are those currently in EMS given preference to those working non-emergency or in another field?

Mmmmmmmm..... Employed would be good. I'd rather have a 21 year old who works at Home Depot to pay for college in my class rather than Larry the 32 year old volunteer EMT who makes ends meet fixing satelitte dishes. Being a field basic would be good, but not entirely necessary.

Prerequisites? How much and what type?

Don't be a moron. Year of EMT work, educational prerequesites as below

Education? Their high school GPA? Their college transcript? Is more always better? Does the MA in Fine Arts get preference over the third year Biology major?

I can tell you your high school GPA isn't really a good indication of your adult abilities, and if they did that well in high school, they probably wouldn't be applying, either. I would weight the college transcript more. Don't take the GPA in itself, rather, look at the classes, the grades, evaluate where their strengths and weaknesses are. If the guy got an A in chemistry, a B in english, a B in Biology and an F in Calculus, his GPA might suck but he's obviously capabable.

And as we all know, fine arts is for idiots. The biology guy gets it. You actually have to study science, rather than talk about your feelings in the arts.

Aptitude testing or intelligence? What kind?

A nice aptitude test would be good. Some puzzles would be great. A good puzzle solver is a good paramedic. Look for people who think out side of the box, have some good memorization skills of a lot of information seen briefly, have 12th grade reading comprehension.

Medical knowledge testing? Who makes the test and what sort of test is it?

Basic medical terminology. Anterior, posterior, medial, lateral, supine, prone, etc. etc. We're supposed to teach them the rest.

Skills testing? What kind?

I'm not sure what kind... I mean its really hard to judge someone's motor skills. My penmanship is awful, I get fine motor tremors in my hands when I'm stressed, and I trip over my own dumb feet sometimes, but I can get an IV on a chubby 3 year old's hand, assemble an epinephrine shooter iwth one hand, and keep my balance doing CPR in a moving ambulance. What would you make of that?

Personality or psychological testing? Specifics?

Personality wise, a good interview should be able to size up a person. Throw a few curves at them, see how they react. But how can you really see how they'll perform under pressure? Pull a gun? As for psychological testing, well, first of all if you if you did a really good psychological screening no one would be left in this biz. Something good to weed out the ones that can't channel their problems into constructive applications like the rest of us.

Physical condition or agility testing? What type, and who sets the standards? How?

They don't have to be Navy SeALs, but I think being able to jog a mile and a half in under fifteen and at least 80 pounds to a chest height would be a good idea. Ask yourself "if I was in the shit, would this person be able to save my neck?"

Drug testing? Urine screening, that is.

Yes. No stoners, junkies, meth heads, speed freaks, dusters, dope fiends or such. Alcoholics are okay, as always.

Criminal history check? What disqualifies and what does not disqualify?

Violent crime is right out, sexual based crimes, or DUI's. Look for a pattern of behavior. One shoplifting pinch isn't a big deal. A couple of them recently is.

Personal interviews? What do you want to ask them? What answers do you want to hear? What answers do you NOT want to hear? What do you want them to ask you?

Why on God's green other would you want to be a paramedic? Answer: Something honest, but answers about being a hero, saving lives, the rush, the excitement and whatever are not good.

Letters of recommendation? From whom would it make a difference?

If someone had a good record at their previous employer it would say a lot. Being able to hold a job and do it well is a big step in the right direction for responsibility, letters of recommendation from teachers would also be good. Show me a good employee who's a good student and I'll show you someone who can be a good paramedic.

Time on the waiting list? Does an applicant who was qualified this time, but was not admitted for lack of space, get preference next semester?

Time on waiting list, I would say we get to you when we get to you. Personally I'd rather not have a list. I'd rather have the best I can get for each class, rather than shut out new potential in favor of the next best from the list.

My main problem with the interview process is this, and don't tell me this doesn't happen. The interviewers should be paramedics, obviously. Paramedics work in a community. Communites get to know each other. No one can be 100% objective for screening applicants if they are doing it in the same community they work in. Nepotism, cronyism, racism, they all figure into how certain people are selected for classes. Fire and PD all ready have a lock on getting their friends, sons, daughters, sisters, and uncles in on the job, let's try to make EMS a little different and get the best qualified and most promising person in the class, even if they're not part of the good ol' boy network. This is what happened to me when I worked in New Jersey. Me, good EMT, not part of the whole volunteer squad hero culture, cannot get into medic courses run by the monopolized programs, applies to college based paramedic course in New York, graduates with honors, and the rest is history. It was for the best, trust me, you don't know how f--ed up the system you work in is until you go some place else and look back.