Link for accredited EMS Programs

[UMSTUDENT]

One of the reasons that we are friends is because we think so much alike. I don't need his encouragement or approval to believe the things I believe. Anybody with any experience and common sense can figure these things out with neither me nor Dr. Bledsoe having to tell them.

After all your education, I am disappointed in your failure to grasp the basic concepts of the scientific method. One need not prove that a theory is invalid. The theorist must prove that his theory DOES work. That has not yet been done. If it has not yet been shown to be effective, why would you even waste a moment's time looking for evidence that it does not? That's just back asswards. That is clearly a move of desparation, which is what your UMBC friends are down to.

The realm was already well recognised and understood. Mental health professionals have been dealing with it for decades, and have effective strategies for doing so. All Mitchell did was to throw together a half-baked theory that if you have lay persons with no formal psychiatric education give half-arsed, cookbook psychotherapy to people before they get the disease, they won't get it at all. And, as we have all seen, it's total bull$hit. It's like giving people chemotherapy in hopes that they won't get cancer. You won't prevent the cancer, and you will kill some people trying.

Wrong. The generally accepted industry standeard for critical care transport is to send an ICU RN along with the patient. And so long as the merit badge course for medics remains as woefully inadequate as CCEMTP, ICU RN will remain the standard. Regardless, if it is some kind of "standard," it is only because it has no competition. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

Oh, right... and "accelerated" EMT and Paramedic courses are wildly popular too. So I suppose they are the "standard" that all others should emulate? Get real. You and I both know that the fast and easy way will always be "popular" in EMS. Hell, if I were to start a course that competed with CCEMTP, but was only half as long, my course would be the "industry standard" within a month. Popularity does not define excellence in medicine.

I have no idea what you are even talking about here. I made no statements regarding research from anybody. In fact, I did not use the word "research" at all.

I agree with you on some points. Yes I do understand the scientific method (I would hope) and yes I do understand the controversy surrounding CISM, especially in the realm of efficacy. You cannot, however, have your cake and eat it to. If you argue that CISM has never been studied for effectiveness then you must also advocate proper scientific research models. Having a group of psychologist, who claim to understand the CISM methods, performing a controlled study is different that subjecting those same test individuals to a study where properly "trained" and certified debriefing counselors are used. If the psychiatric community is so disenfranchised with the practice then why have they not stepped up to the plate with a properly conducted research methodology? I don't care if everything else is up to par, leaving that one aspect out is tantamount to nothing more than a biased study!

I agree that methods must change with continuing research, but I also question the ferocity for which certain individuals in the EMS community attack these theories. I also question why, if this theory is so horrible, it is still practiced and accepted by so many other well-educated professionals. Trust me; the theory is still widely used despite the opinions of certain organizations and individuals.

In regards to the CCEMTP course, I think you misunderstand the goal of the course. While it is true that the course does overview many critical care procedures, I don't believe it has ever claimed to certify proficiency in these skills. The CCEMTP course is only an orientation to the realm of critical care transport. While being an ICU nurse is very admirable, it does not mean that the individual is qualified to be hauling a patient back and forth in an ambulance or helicopter. There are many dynamics to the care of an individual while in the field.

The attacks on these practices have been almost entirely childish. They make great PowerPoints at conferences, but have little or no effect on the real world practice. The truth is that despite these claims, nothing is ever done to fix the so-called problem. The individuals touting the ineffectiveness of CISM and other practices have done nothing but prey on the hate most public safety personnel have always had towards these "touchy feely" debriefings. They make great topics at large conferences. Great topics=great money.

[Ridryder 911]

I am quite aware of the design and intent of CCEMT/P and what it has unfortunately been turned into a marketing gimmick. Unfortunately, Maryland still attempts to market it as more than an "continuing educational" program and as well has copyrighted the CCEMT/P abbreviation, so now the official title is CCP.

Now, I am wondering what UMBC will do, when the new Paramedic curriculum is released with CCP material already included in it. Now, at approximately $2000 per person, that is significant amount even at professional standards, for nothing more than an "introductory in-service".

Now, they have developed a pediatric speciality transport, again without credentials or any authorizing body, and again representing that it is more than another CEU. Selling patches, trademarking abbreviations, and then not to "really" authorize anything is my dispute. To me that is just as questionable of integrity, more than those that dispute and publicly announce such at national conferences. Please remember, that some of those of that dispute such programs are well respected authors and consultants of state and national curriculum developments.

Yes, I am sure Maryland has an outstanding program... but, like any other educational theories and delivery systems, should be reasonably questioned and monitored. Even as students of prestigious institutions, I am sure you would agree all university programs and research programs should be thoroughly monitored.

R/r 911

[UMSTUDENT]

I am quite aware of the design and intent of CCEMT/P and what it has unfortunately been turned into a marketing gimmick. Unfortunately, Maryland still attempts to market it as more than an "continuing educational" program and as well has copyrighted the CCEMT/P abbreviation, so now the official title is CCP.

Now, I am wondering what UMBC will do, when the new Paramedic curriculum is released with CCP material already included in it. Now, at approximately $2000 per person, that is significant amount even at professional standards, for nothing more than an "introductory in-service".

Now, they have developed a pediatric speciality transport, again without credentials or any authorizing body, and again representing that it is more than another CEU. Selling patches, trademarking abbreviations, and then not to "really" authorize anything is my dispute. To me that is just as questionable of integrity, more than those that dispute and publicly announce such at national conferences. Please remember, that some of those of that dispute such programs are well respected authors and consultants of state and national curriculum developments.

Yes, I am sure Maryland has an outstanding program... but, like any other educational theories and delivery systems, should be reasonably questioned and monitored. Even as students of prestigious institutions, I am sure you would agree all university programs and research programs should be thoroughly monitored.

R/r 911

It seems like there is a lot of animosity regarding the financial aspects of developing programs like this. If you develop something that is successful and there is an overwhelming demand for it, then money is sure to follow. Simple economics. I promise you, however, from my own personal experience that no one at UMBC is getting rich. It's a state school with an overwhelming mission and decent reputation.

As far as an "authorizing body," well you have no one to blame but your own profession. A well-respected research university is about as close as it gets to professional integrity in EMS, especially when there exist no real governing body of educational development in this country. As far as the PNCCT course is concerned, I am fairly certain that it has been co-developed with Johns Hopkins Children's Hospital. It wasn't a singular effort.

I won't even mention the integrity of some of the people who walk around these EMS conferences.

[Dustdevil]

I won't even mention the integrity of some of the people who walk around these EMS conferences.

It has gone up considerably since Jay Fitch and Jack Stout crawled back under their rocks.

[UMSTUDENT]

It has gone up considerably since Jay Fitch and Jack Stout crawled back under their rocks.

Again, Jack Stout. A man who has done considerably well in EMS, and despite significant controversy, still is highly regarded in many circles. What is the most amazing thing about Mr. Stout is that instead of constantly complaining about the sub-par standards that exist in EMS, he attempted to fix the problem. If you want to advocate a socialist economy where everyone works for the greater good of humanity with no financial incentive then you might want to start looking for the starship Enterprise.

I mean come on, how ingenious is it to utilize math and historical data to predict call volumes? Even if it doesn't necessarily always work, it at least sounds good! The real world works on this type of ingenuity. SSM isn't flawed, EMS is flawed. Human beings have been using mathematical equations and computer programs to predict everything from earth quakes to hurricanes with amazing accuracy for years. SSM works in a profession that deals almost entirely with the dynamics of biological death and human stupidity. Both are hard to predict and neither are kind to small mistakes. I mean come on; Wal Mart knows to ship more strawberry Pop-Tarts during large storms because of the exact same theory!

The difference? Our society has deemed it necessary to demand nothing less than perfection in regards to healthcare with no clear societal obligation to fund such a standard. One guy came along and tried to make due with what existed and in the process some holes were punched into the theory. Most well managed EMS systems utilize some form of SSM today, by themselves molding Stout's ideas into their unique demographics.

"When in doubt, go Stout!"

[scubanurse]

Scuba,

You seem to be pretty self absorbed if you have completley ignored the fact that UMBC had one of the first four year programs, and as such, has alumni all over the United States. Perhaps you should be careful what you shout from the rooftops about lawsuits and inability to follow procedure and such. It's not wise to burn your bridges.

As stated WAY above by UMSTUDENT, take what Scuba says with a grain of salt.

didn't I specifically say I wasn't bad mouthing UMBC? I am entitled to my opinion about their program.

[Ridryder 911]

Apparently, you have never worked with or met Jack Stout and his prodigal son.... a self proclaimed "EMS Guru".... Sure, for a few million I could tell you as well to either place EMS in third party, fire, or private.... duh. Now, let's compare the "so-called" success of the systems he initiated.... hmmm and he was still employed.

Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately many seen through his smoke screen and propaganda. Yes, it sounded good and that was it. So did he do any good for humanity or more for himself. Yes, it is okay to make a respectable living as long as your not screwing anyone else ever.. (except prostitution ) ..

If you are really considering a professional career as an EMS administrator or policy maker, I highly suggest you omit the name of him. Many are still feeling the bad taste he left ....and the empty pocket book.

R/r 911

[Dustdevil]

If you are really considering a professional career as an EMS administrator or policy maker, I highly suggest you omit the name of him. Many are still feeling the bad taste he left ....and the empty pocket book.

Exactly. SSM isn't the only rotten egg he laid. The PUM in and of itself is equally putrid. As Rid pointed out, it was all smoke and mirrors. SSM was supposed to maximise resource utilisation while minimising resources themselves. Uhh... do I even have to explain the fallacy of that theory? Had you ever worked one week in an SSM system, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. And the PUM was supposed to reap such a phenomenal profit for the contractor that government subsidies would never again be necessary. Here is the long list of systems who adopted the PUM and subsequently made such a profit that they were able to eliminate their subsidies:

• So the verdict on Stout and his brainstorms is split. Some believe he was and is a charlatan. A flim flam man. A scheming fraud who knowingly and willingly sold people a load of utter bollocks, full well knowing that his numbers would never work out, but that he would have already cashed the cheques years before anybody figured it out. I, on the other hand, prefer to kindly give him the benefit of the doubt and simply surmise that he's a farking idiot.

[UMSTUDENT]

[Dustdevil]

PUM philosophy specifically states that true efficiency cannot be achieved until you begin to serve a population of 1,000,000 or more. So it makes sense that EMSA would need some subsidy from the local government to operate efficiently You can't sit here and claim that it was a fraud if you choose to institute such a system while fully knowing that you don't even meet the most basic criterion. Cities have chosen to institute PUM not necessarily because they believed it would keep them from paying for it, but because it works from a quality of care stand point.

Incorrect on all points stated. I was there in 1985 when he came to Fort Worth to peddle his snake oil. I heard the claims directly from his mouth. I saw his written proposals. I saw his rantings to the news media. He damn sure wasn't qualifying any of his claims with population requirements at that time. And he was not presenting other options to us as alternatives that might better meet the needs of our population. He simply swaggered in and laid his one and only plan down on the table, claiming in no uncertain terms that it was the end-all be-all of EMS system management, that one size fit all, and that within a few short years, the city would never again have to pay any subsidy to their EMS provider. I was a journalist at the time and I wrote a half-page editorial about the dubious nature of his claims. A photo of then-paramedic Bryan Bledsoe starting an IV on a patient inside an ambulance was posted with the article. I received letters and phone calls from EMS professionals all over the state praising my foresight. I received nothing but contempt and rolling eyes from the city council and city manager. After all, I wasn't some hot-shot management consultant. I was just a 12 year paramedic. What did I know about EMS?

So, has he altered his claims since then to cover his shite covered arse? I am sure he has! But retroactive revisions of his claims do not change history. They only suggest that I was wrong about him being an idiot. He's not an idiot. He's a scam man. A liar and a thief. His claims were crap then, and they are crap now. He was wrong. I was right. End of story.

P.S. Please learn to edit your quotes. You're bogarting too much space by repeating every post prior to your replies. It's annoying.