European EMS

[Just Plain Ruff]

honestly, I don't see a national system working here.

There are too many people who will want their own piece of the pie and the old adage "Too many cheifs and not enough indians" or too many cooks spoil the dinner.

I just don't see a national ems system in the US we are too fragmented.

[678 Responding]

honestly, I don't see a national system working here.

There are too many people who will want their own piece of the pie and the old adage "Too many cheifs and not enough indians" or too many cooks spoil the dinner.

I just don't see a national ems system in the US we are too fragmented.

I can see 100% where you are coming from. And I agree totally. It goes back to the whole government system. (Ex. state laws) But that doesn't mean that things can't be taken from this example and implemented as far as we could. Increasing educational requirements is a start.

[asrnj77]

I think merely basing things on education is not the answer. You would have to justfy that a current paramedic who takes the "average" two year program is not going to be as good a medic as one that takes a 4 year program. Generally the first two years of a bachelors degree program are when you take your basic classes: Western Civ and English Lit and the like. I'm not as concerned with my Emergency responder knowing details of the War of 1812 as I am with knowledge of ICP.

With regards to European EMS, I saw a guy get hit by a car in Rome and the guy lay crumpled in the street. When the doctor arrived he walked around for a minute and then went back and searched for some equipment, and then spoke with the nurse. This guy didn't appear concious and was in a position where I would not assume he had a definitive airway. The doctor did not put his hands on the patient for at least 2 minutes. I do not know the outcome but I was not overly impressed by what I saw.

[zippyRN]

I think merely basing things on education is not the answer. You would have to justfy that a current paramedic who takes the "average" two year program is not going to be as good a medic as one that takes a 4 year program. Generally the first two years of a bachelors degree program are when you take your basic classes: Western Civ and English Lit and the like. I'm not as concerned with my Emergency responder knowing details of the War of 1812 as I am with knowledge of ICP.

might be the case i nthe US but in a 3 year Diploma of higher education or 3 - 4 year Bachelor with honours health professional programme in the UK it's all relevant from the start and includes significant clinical exposure ( minimum 2300 hours for Nurses)

With regards to European EMS, I saw a guy get hit by a car in Rome and the guy lay crumpled in the street. When the doctor arrived he walked around for a minute and then went back and searched for some equipment, and then spoke with the nurse. This guy didn't appear concious and was in a position where I would not assume he had a definitive airway. The doctor did not put his hands on the patient for at least 2 minutes. I do not know the outcome but I was not overly impressed by what I saw.

4 different models of EMS in Europe

1. British - Has multiple grades of ambulance provider

Ambulance care assistant - only does the pre planned patient transport work - might first respond - limited training

intermediate tier - does urgent admissions, stable transfers and post triage emergencies - relatively limited training but the training they do get is to professional ambulance standards

technician - does full range of emergney ambulance work, limited invasive techniques ( BGM, IM/ SC drugs )

Paramedic - full health professional status, - imminently Highr education qualified for entry to practice

Emergency care practitioner - post basic ( degree or post grad) educated paramedic or Emergency care RN - has practitioner skills and wider ranging drug therapy and referal options - relatively limited additional critical care skills if any

some field involvement of physicians - but primarily critical care medicine and anaesthesia , prolonged scene times due to entrapment and mass casualty incidents

2. the Dutch / Scandinavian system - where advanced providers are all post grad RNs

3. Franco-German systems with physician led provision

4. mediterrean systems which are back in the dark ages - blokes in vans with first aid boxes

[fiznat]

Guys, guys! I think we're ignoring whats really important here!!

LOOK at that ridiculous thing! LOL! We win.

[678 Responding]

Guys, guys! I think we're ignoring whats really important here!!

LOOK at that ridiculous thing! LOL! We win.

Come on!! When you ride, you gotta ride in style... MERCEDES!!! hahaha

[Dustdevil]

Mercedes numba one!! :thumbright:

The only thing wrong with that ambo is that fugly Star Of Life on it.

As for the constant denigration of advanced education coming from those who don't have it, if you had it, you wouldn't begrudge it so much. A properly laid out medical education doesn't include 18th Century Literature and such in their degree plan. Sure, you can do anything you want with your electives. If Medieval history floats your boat, well hell... it's your 16 hours to do what you like with. But you can't judge the value of an education by what few electives somebody chose to take.

As was already stated, you can very easily pack four years of actual relevancy into a four year degree program. And whining about others who have or promote education just really makes you look lame. It's like standing up and screaming, "I AIN'T GOT NO EDUMACATION AND SCREW ANYBODY WHO DOES!"

[Timmy]

It’s basically the same as Australia. Most of our ambulances are Mercs. Although our ambulances are not staffed with nurses our paramedics have good enough training to handle most situations. Most major hospitals have Medical Response Teams which consist of Doctors, Surgeons, Anesthetises, Nurses, Emergency Specialists ect. There dispatched if there’s a need for a surgical consult or a major emergency.

[asrnj77]

I think that's a Benz...still ugly as sin though...

Guys, guys! I think we're ignoring whats really important here!!

LOOK at that ridiculous thing! LOL! We win.

[Lin]

The biggest difference is in Europe, mainly Germany, France, Netherlands, etc they bring the hospital to the patient as opposed to stabilize and transport. It may work for them but their systems don't have EMT's trained at nearly the same level we do. True they got nurses and Doc's but hey, look at the Princess Di crash, can you imagine us EMS folks in the US or Canada hangin on a trauma crash scene like they did for > 45 minutes? She did'nt die till they finally decided to book with her, Anyway my point is if our country and Canada was only as big as some of these countries yea we could probably have an across the board sysytem but it aint gonna happen in my opinion. In Europe the Doc is God & all the other underlings dont do nuthin till a doc says so.Thats been my experience in Germany & some other places. They do have some very good folks and certainly we could take some ideas to use. Ok thanks for the post.