Appropriate use of ALS providers.

[everyminutesucks.com]

Wouldn't putting 2 RNs on a rig be raising the standards? Why just go for double medic rigs when we could just as easily go for 2 nurses? Or Doctors?

Don't get me wrong. I am all for raising the bar. I wouldn't trust half of our medics with my family let alone our EMT-B's. But where do you draw the line? Just a question thats all. If 2 EMT's is not as good as 1 medic/1 emt or 2 medics, then why should we be happy with 2 medics when we could just as well go higher and require all medics to be trained as RN's? And after that go up from there. Who says that the highest level of care in the field has to be a Medic?

[everyminutesucks.com]

Then we could have Paramedic First Responders. :wink:

[BushyFromOz]

Wouldn't putting 2 RNs on a rig be raising the standards? Why just go for double medic rigs when we could just as easily go for 2 nurses? Or Doctors?

Don't get me wrong. I am all for raising the bar. I wouldn't trust half of our medics with my family let alone our EMT-B's. But where do you draw the line? Just a question thats all. If 2 EMT's is not as good as 1 medic/1 emt or 2 medics, then why should we be happy with 2 medics when we could just as well go higher and require all medics to be trained as RN's? And after that go up from there. Who says that the highest level of care in the field has to be a Medic?

Do you not think pre-hospital care is a specialist field? Tell me how RN's or Dr's recieve specific training and education relevent to the field of pre-hospital care?

This is not really raising the bar, its making an standard that is irrelevent to the field the standard is made for.

[everyminutesucks.com]

The "training" in prehospital care is minimal. A RN or MD could be trained just as easily and quickly as a EMT-B. After that the difference I think this thread was about was the level of education that the personnel had. There are already RNs trained on ALS rigs as EMTs and that function at a higher level than the medics that they work with.

I think that EMT-B's have their place, I don't like systems that don't use medics. But where is the benefit of 2 medics? Right now we have only 1 county that requires 2 medics on a rig. We still have problems with some of the medics we have irregardless of whether there were 2 of them. And some of them could use better training as well. So I don't think the paramedic standards are high enough as it is. Not that they all do a bad job. Some of them are EXTREMLY good at their jobs. BUT a lot of them could use more education as well. So again I say why stop there.

[BushyFromOz]

The "training" in prehospital care is minimal.

WOnt touch this one....

A RN or MD could be trained just as easily and quickly as a EMT-B. After that the difference I think this thread was about was the level of education that the personnel had. There are already RNs trained on ALS rigs as EMTs and that function at a higher level than the medics that they work with.

Okay, so you have an education problem, i can dig that - so i guess you would rather throw the profession at the hospital and have them take your place in the ambulance then?

I think that EMT-B's have their place, I don't like systems that don't use medics. But where is the benefit of 2 medics?

You cant come up with any scenarios yourself where this would be a benefit?

And some of them could use better training as well. So I don't think the paramedic standards are high enough as it is. Not that they all do a bad job. Some of them are EXTREMLY good at their jobs. BUT a lot of them could use more education as well. So again I say why stop there.

Becuase throwing the job at another profession only covers up the issue. Your saying education is a problem right? Well, what better way to sort it then an industry specific degree as a pre-requisite

[Timmy]

Well if your service only had ALS and Intensive Care then there wouldn’t be a problem...

[everyminutesucks.com]

WOnt touch this one....

EMT Basics are trained in prehospital care. The medical training that a paramedic has is far higher than any EMT-B. What I mean is the training it takes to function on an ambulance. The medical education that a nurse has is higher than a paramedic and they could be easily trained to work on an ambulance. Granted there are other aspects of prehospital care that a nurse does not have but they could be trained in them as well. They still meet the requirements to work on an ALS ambulance with a EMT-B Cert. At least in Minnesota.

Okay, so you have an education problem, i can dig that - so i guess you would rather throw the profession at the hospital and have them take your place in the ambulance then?

I don't believe that having a requirement for medics to be trained to the level of RN's would be throwing the job at the hospital. Why does having nurses on rigs constitute eliminating your job? If you are after a higher level of education such as degreed paramedics then why not just say that it should be a 4 year RN? That is not a real stretch to have 2 yr medics in school for 2 more years. It was not long ago when EMT-b was the standard. There were no paramedics. Now paramedics are becoming the standard. I don't think it will take too long before it is a 4 year RN as the standard. There is already a huge push nation wide for RNs in hospitals. They don't staff medics in most hospitals. What is to say that won't happen in the field as well? Or why shouldn't it?

You cant come up with any scenarios yourself where this would be a benefit?

I take this one back. That was just dumb. I should have known better than to say that. My bad. :oops:

Becuase throwing the job at another profession only covers up the issue. Your saying education is a problem right? Well, what better way to sort it then an industry specific degree as a pre-requisite

Again I want to stress that I am only playing devils advocate here.

I am not saying that I want to eliminate anyones job. I am only saying that if you are after a higher standard. Medics over EMTs then why should we not look at RNs over Medics. That could be the standard. If we are raising it to eliminate EMTs and make Medics the standard then we could still benefit from Medics trained as RNs. Why is one good and not the other? If there is an easily obtainable increase in training for Medics why wouldn't we want that? In the end the pt would receive care from someone with an even higher level of education. How would that be bad?

[BushyFromOz]

Aaahhh i see whats happening here..

Your saying Paramedics educated with a bachelor of nursing degree

Im saying Paramedics educated with a Bachelor of pre-hospital care degree

Guess which one is industry specific?

P.S. You play devils advocate well! :wink:

[everyminutesucks.com]

Well if your service only had ALS and Intensive Care then there wouldn’t be a problem...

Sorry, I guess I'm not sure to which part you are referring... Would it not be better if they were all Intensive Care?

[everyminutesucks.com]

Aaahhh i see whats happening here..

Your saying Paramedics educated with a bachelor of nursing degree

Im saying Paramedics educated with a Bachelor of pre-hospital care degree

Guess which one is industry specific?

P.S. You play devils advocate well! :wink:

I'm saying pt care specific. If you want a nursing equivalent degree in prehospital care that is fine. But then I think you are handicapping all of those dead end medics that injure their backs, or just tire of workiing on the street and want a job change. Unless they are interchangeable (and then what is the point of separating the 2?). Many more possibilities with the same classification. As well as the pay. Medics could finally argue to be paid what they are worth....