A question for you guys in Indianapolis

[GulDukat]

I was looking at the Indianapolis star's web page & it talked about the mayor consolidating the fire departments, or better yet that he is trying to.

The only question I have is about the new "civilian" ambulance workers that IFD is starting.

What is the advantage of this? I'm not trying to be coy or smart or anything I just am curious if anyone knows why go this route and not just let Wishard Ambulance service take over like they do other IFD areas?

I've seen online that IFD is paying 40K a year starting for Medics & I think that is slightly above what Wishard pays. So I guess the question is if this is about cost savings why the added expense for Ambulance service?

Also, & I'm not trying to get into a "fire department vs. non-fire department" ems thing, but if you hire "civilian" EMS and only the word "fire department" is on the patch & on the trucks then what is the point of having a fire department EMS?

Also, and this is just for morbid curiosity on my part, but does anybody work as a civilian EMS worker for a fire department on this board? If so are you treated like any other fireman or member of the department or is it something else.

I do have a friend who inquired about being an IFD Medic & he was told that he had to move within Marion County in less than a year. I don't know if he was right or not, for all I know he was lying just to make an excuse as to why he didn't get the job. But if it is true my guess is they are getting around the residency rule for firefighters in Indiana because they are not real firemen & thus are not protected by this rule. If that is then how does anyone feel about this?

Sorry for asking something so regional on here, but I was curious.

[zippyRN]

I was looking at the Indianapolis star's web page & it talked about the mayor consolidating the fire departments, or better yet that he is trying to.

The only question I have is about the new "civilian" ambulance workers that IFD is starting.

What is the advantage of this? I'm not trying to be coy or smart or anything I just am curious if anyone knows why go this route and not just let Wishard Ambulance service take over like they do other IFD areas?

I've seen online that IFD is paying 40K a year starting for Medics & I think that is slightly above what Wishard pays. So I guess the question is if this is about cost savings why the added expense for Ambulance service?

Also, & I'm not trying to get into a "fire department vs. non-fire department" ems thing, but if you hire "civilian" EMS and only the word "fire department" is on the patch & on the trucks then what is the point of having a fire department EMS?

Also, and this is just for morbid curiosity on my part, but does anybody work as a civilian EMS worker for a fire department on this board? If so are you treated like any other fireman or member of the department or is it something else.

I do have a friend who inquired about being an IFD Medic & he was told that he had to move within Marion County in less than a year. I don't know if he was right or not, for all I know he was lying just to make an excuse as to why he didn't get the job. But if it is true my guess is they are getting around the residency rule for firefighters in Indiana because they are not real firemen & thus are not protected by this rule. If that is then how does anyone feel about this?

Sorry for asking something so regional on here, but I was curious.

simple answer = money

money stays within the FD if they manage the EMS system

if ambulance staff who aren't FFs are cheaper to employ ( i.e. not covered by the FF contract and the FF unions) then money 'saved'

also can pick from a wider pool of people as they only need to be fit for role as ambo bods and not as FF ( how strict is the US on eyesight and any hx of breathign problems for anyone who may have to wear SCBA - it excludes quite a lot of people from FF careers i nthe UK )

[hfdff422]

The answer is: PERF (public employees retirement fund). Yes unions and FD contracts have something to do with it. Civilian paramedcis are still under a PERF system, it is just not restrictive like the 1977 police and firefighters fund that Indiana uses. The 1977 PERF fund is restrictive (I don't understand how it is not discrimination). The fact is, too many fire departments are fighting for too few medics that are under 36, can pass CPAT (which if you don't know what that is, you start by doing a stair climb for 3min, 20sec with 75 lbs on you then they make you do a fairly demanding obstacle course in a certain amount of time with alot of critical fails), and can pass the PERF physical and background check. So they get around this by hiring medics that are not eligible for the 1977 fund and call them "civilian" medics. The pay is usually still as good (often better), and the benefits are almost as good, but they dont get to get rotated off of the ambulance. There are still other options such as wishard (which will probably not go by the wayside for Center Township), Rural Metro (Johnson County, Morgan county and other areas), and some others. As for the unification of departments, well IMHO that is a cash grab by the poorly ran city to rob the properly ran townships of their money and it will ultimately hurt everyone.

[epi-do]

Over the summer I began working for one of the departments in Marion County as a civilian EMT. We were told when they hired us that the reason they decided to go the "civilian" route is because they can hire two of us for the same cost as one firefighter. We are held to the same standards of conduct as the firefighters and operate under the same rules. The only thing is we don't go into burning buildings, cut cars up, etc. We work 24/48 shifts, just like the firefighters. I can't speak for everyone that works as a civilian for a FD, but my guys are absolutely wonderful. I am treated just like one of them when it comes to station life. On a scene, I know what my job is, and I do it, but that same thing can be said of the officers, chauffers, and backsteppers that I work with as well.

The union president was at our FD just the other night to talk to us about consolidation and alot of interesting things were said. Wishard is going to continue to provide coverage within Center Township - IFD has no desire to get into the ambulance business. The thing is, as the townships begin joining the consolidation IFD is going to be aquiring ambulances. They have decided to maintain those trucks and staff them with civilians so they can keep the firefighters on the firetrucks. Like previously stated, it all comes down to the bottom line.

I haven't heard about the residency requirement, so I can't really comment on that. Where I am working, there is no such requirement. Almost everyone at my house lives either on the far south side of Indy, in Johnson County, or just east of Marion County.

But if it is true my guess is they are getting around the residency rule for firefighters in Indiana because they are not real firemen & thus are not protected by this rule.

Not really sure what you mean by this statement. I have worked for Wishard, a township FD, and now a city FD and I can assure you that the FF's in Marion County are all real firefighters.

[Dustdevil]

Not really sure what you mean by this statement. I have worked for Wishard, a township FD, and now a city FD and I can assure you that the FF's in Marion County are all real firefighters.

Duke isn't talking about firefighters. He's talking about civilian medics employed by fire departments. They are not "real firemen" and therefore he speculates that the departments are not having to apply the normal residency rules to them.

[epi-do]

Well, duh! Don't I feel like an idiot now. It was a long shift at work and I wasn't thinking that clearly last night. Thanks for clarifying for me, Dust!

[hfdff422]

Residency has nothing to do with it. Most FD's only require a contiguous county and have hardship exemptions as well. And the only thing they have to beg for is medics, as for the other positions, well Wayne Township had 1120 applicants for thier last hiring list and ended up with 89 on the final list and IFD buries that. The civilian EMTs don't make much money compared to 1977 firefighter/EMTs. The medics are the ones who are in demand and are the reason for the system being the way it is. You will get 20 or 30 EMTs applying for one position and two medics applying for one position.

[Dustdevil]

Anybody tell me anything about Evansville?

I have a friend fixin to start college there next year.

[hfdff422]

Evansville? Isn't that in Kentucky?

[GulDukat]

Anybody tell me anything about Evansville?

I have a friend fixin to start college there next year.

AMR is the primary provider of service for the area. There are a couple of small fire departments that offer Ambulance service in surrounding townships. But for the city it is AMR.

Just FYI Lee Turpin is based out of the Evansville AMR so he makes certain that AMR provides top notch service in that area. Lee is a statistical wizard & runs a tight ship.

I don't know AMR around the country because I don't deal with them, but I know that Lee's group is well respected in the Indiana EMS community.