BLS pushing ALS drugs in a "pinch"

[DwayneEMTP]

Way to answer your own question. +15 for realizing the futility of chasing an arbitrary system of approval.

Happy now?

If by arbitrary you mean impusive (I didn't find a real clear definition) I disagree! Earning a +1 from the 'counsel of elders' is a pretty big deal I think! And becksdad's post certainly qualifies...

Sorry, if your post went over my head, I couldn't tell if you knew I was joking or not....

Dwayne

[sirenlover]

Forgive me as I have not read beyond the first 4-5 pages. I will enforce what others have said though,

This scenario is just WRONG. And I can honestly say, I have never encountered this in my career. (20 years) many of which were working as a basic and then many years later as a paramedic.

I am truly alarmed at how many think this is "just reality".

It IS out of the scope of practice for a basic to administer morphine. It doesn't matter what the situation was, it should not have happened. Both parties are at fault. My opinion is, the paramedic should lose his certification and the basic should be disciplined.

Bottom line is - IT IS ILLEGAL people! Not to mention unethical. The events as well as the falsifying the documentation.

I wonder if this paramedic realizes he not only put himself, his partner, his patient, but his service in jeopardy as well?

And, just for the record, traction splint is applied on CLOSED femur fractures only.

[Savoy6]

Eight pages on this topic?? Legally-wrong, don't try to rationalize this behavior. Condoning this maverick bahavior is what keeps EMS from being accepted as a profession. Go ahead, attack me. I DON"T CARE> I deal with this every day.

What sounds good in a forum will not stand up in an administrative hearing. Orders are meant to be followed. "laws are meant to be broken" is a lame ass statement so old, most here weren't born the first time I heard it in EMS. Total disregard for rules sounds sexy and heroic. There is a fine line between hero and fool.

Here's an order that crew should follow, "hey, I wanted large fries with that big mac".

I am disgusted with anyone supporting that behavior, but am not shocked by it. just when I thought it was safe to come back to the forums...

[Dustdevil]

And, just for the record, traction splint is applied on CLOSED femur fractures only.

And, just for the record, that is a matter of valid debate and local policy.

Your personal protocols do not apply to the whole world.

[mrt2113]

I don't know what to say about this situation. Open fraction, bleeding like hell, I probabl would have pushed the drugs myself and had the EMT continue what i was doing. What was the medic doing that was so important that he couldn't push the drug. Controlling the bleeding or closing rhe wound, both the EMT could have done. There are alot of unknowns here. From what I know now I would have pushed it myself and had the EMT continue what I was doing just to keep both of our asses safe. Why do I care I ride with another medic anyway, but thats what I would have done.

MRT

[george_nbbi]

I have the read the thread with interest. I noticed a ACP from NS weighed, I was glad to read that. I am a PCP trained in NB, with a few nice little things. I am similar to a EMT-I in the US. My NS brother is right, there are a lot of ACP's (EMT-P's) around that allow their partners ( PCP"s ICP's etc) to do things beyond their scope. Do I codone falsing information not really, would I want the best for my patient heck yes. I had an instructor wh once tried to perform an IV and could not get it. He then stated it was ok, because his PCP partner started most of the lines anyways. I am glad the one time that situation was put to me. I took a stand and said no, would I rant and rave about someone else, not sure. It is their license not mine, they do as they choose, I do as I chose.

Interesting side not I once had a supervisor tell me that since my MFR (EMT- partner was trained and tested in the same protocols and procedures (they recently upgraded their skill level to include ALS), that in essence my partner could place an advanced airway if needed in a pinch. I still scratch my head at that one. Thank the heavens above the partner I worked with told me later, that under no circumstances that a EMT B or MFR would ever place that, simply because they don't have a clue as to the anatomy that I do etc.

My 6 cents.

[rock_shoes]

To be honest I can't understand why this thread has carried on for so long. I'm just starting out in EMS and I would NEVER do something outside of my scope. I would like to progress through the levels of EMS and risking my license at this early stage would fall into the stupid risk category in my opinion.

[swn919]

Here is my question. I am sorry if this was already brought up. I am a medic and I would allow a Basic to push a med. that I "ordered" and made completely sure of the 5Rs. But what is the difference if you allow a Medic student to push a med? I mean they are still a basic and it is outside their scope of pratice but we all know that students push meds.

[JPINFV]

^

Isn't it generally held that a student working with a preceptor has the same scope as the preceptor? I know that according to California law, if I have an EMT-Basic student with me during a shift then the basic can utilize the full basic scope while supervised.

[swn919]

I understand that..but why cant a basic work under the same status?