BLS pushing ALS drugs in a "pinch"

[Michael]

what happens when the patient arrests

Or doesn't? http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/botche...6162356982.html

[Neb.EMT]

Okay, let's throw a twist in. Let's say your basic IS a medic student. Your partners school doesn't have a contract with your service. Therefore, TECHNICALLY you can't precept him. You are a preceptor for other schools though. How would you feel in that situation? Personally, I've got a couple of good basic partners that I allow to do advanced skills. I generally don't have a problem with them doing thinqs they've been trained for as long as I am supervising. What does everyone think about that?

[paramedicmike]

Okay, let's throw a twist in. Let's say your basic IS a medic student. Your partners school doesn't have a contract with your service. Therefore, TECHNICALLY you can't precept him. You are a preceptor for other schools though. How would you feel in that situation? Personally, I've got a couple of good basic partners that I allow to do advanced skills. I generally don't have a problem with them doing thinqs they've been trained for as long as I am supervising. What does everyone think about that?

The answer is still no. They're still operating out of their scope. You're still delegating tasks that you shouldn't be. They're not your medic students. You're not their preceptor. If you allow it and then chart that you did it then you're falsifying your chart.

Even if you don't write down that you did it or the EMT did it, the mere fact that an ALS procedure was done with you being the ALS provider on the ambulance means you did it. You have then falsified a chart.

This doesn't bother you?

-be safe

[Just Plain Ruff]

so you don't see a problem writing on the report that you did the als advanced skill? or gave an als drug but yet you didn't but your emt did.

do you let your emt's start iv's?

do you let them defib

how about intubate?

You are playing with fire my friend and in the end it will bite you in the ass.

do you not see where you are wrong in this instance?

When you get caught, and it's not just when But that you will get caught, I have a couple of friends who manage a mcdonalds or taco bell that you could probably get hired on at.

I've never let a basic nor a medic student do advanced level skills. Unless the medic student is on his clinicals.

[iadybug423]

What if the EMTB refuses to push something out of their scope in a pinch or not?

I don't think it's right, nor good, honest teamwork to expect or ask that of a coworker.

[AZCEP]

What if the EMTB refuses to push something out of their scope in a pinch or not?

I don't think it's right, nor good, honest teamwork to expect or ask that of a coworker.

If the EMT refuses, maybe the medic would realize that it was a stupid request in the first place. I've asked partners to help with some things that they might have been uncomfortable with. When they voice their concerns, it forces me to think about why I asked it in the first place.

Sometimes the right thing to do isn't the easy thing to do.

[stcommodore]

Let's just put it this way then. Somethings happen in the back of an ambulance that are not totally "legal". Sometimes paramedic students acting as EMT-B's can "assist" simply on knowing what is going on, what is and will be needed and by that do things from 12 lead placement to "other things" in the back of an ambulance. Issue then is if the crew opperates this way are they willing to live with the consequences of there actions? Situations happen from time to tim where we make that call and we are left to live with it good or bad.

Here is a spin...

You are a medic student riding with your school's/services preceptor and respond to a mass casuality event. You are seperated from your preceptor for whatever reason and need to treat a patient you have ALS. Do you do it, or consider yourself a basic again since you are without your preceptor?

...We can say in a disaster all bets are off but beyond that what would you do?

[Thunderchild145]

Even if the EMT-B is a medic student, he's not acting as a medic student if he's at work. Legally, he's an EMT-B.

[BushyFromOz]

I dont know why people are dancing around this topic when it has already been stated that there are clearly defined laws involved the unequivicably show that under no circumstances does the US basic push that med?

It black and white folks, there no other angle or spin. It is what it is. Follow the law.

[paramedicmike]

I dont know why people are dancing around this topic when it has already been stated that there are clearly defined laws involved the unequivicably show that under no circumstances does the US basic push that med?

It black and white folks, there no other angle or spin. It is what it is. Follow the law.

They're dancing around it, Bushy, because so many people in American EMS thinks they should be able to do things and rules/education be damned. These are the people who are in it for themselves and not the patient. This is where much, but not all, of what has been brought up in this topic stems.

It's the "ME ME ME" factor. Unfortunately, this is where American EMS gets hung up so many times. It's also a major reason why we here in the States aren't taken as seriously as some of us think we should be.

You're spot on, though. It is black and white. It doesn't matter how you spin it. Unfortunately, people don't see it that way.

-be safe