9/11 Death Sentence?

[THE_DITCH_DOCTOR]

It's not faux-patriotism, it's realism. We're no better than anyone else, and I realize that- it's partly the "We're Americans and we're always right attitude" that got us in this mess to begin with. I don't fault the soldiers, sailors and airman- I fault the leadership- I tear bumper stickers off cars, I take down any recruiting displays I see, and I spit at anyone at or above of the rank of Lieutenant Colonel. The soldiers who do things aren't acting alone or independently- there is a pervasive sense of retribution in the military, always has, always will be and it starts with the monkey in the White House.

I didn't say there was one difference between us- there are many differences, but that's not the point. The point is that you seem to believe that the US military is a humanitarian force, only there to spread the good will and cheer that is American style living- sorry, wrong- the first role of any soldier is to kill as many members of the enemy population as possible as effectively as possible so they are no longer a threat. The problem is the press, most people can stomach killing, so long as they don't have to directly see it as the press deems it necessary in this war. I'll bet you might first born that if reporters were reined in during the terrorist action in Iraq, like they had been in previous engagements the US has been involved with, then we wouldn't be handing this conversation.

Remember, Al Qaeda is not a government- it's a group: think of it as a group along the lines of the Christian Coalition only with AK-47's and car bombs, instead of Jerry Falwell and bible thumpers. I didn't have a problem with us going after those who attacked us- and I don't have a problem with torturing people who have information but I do have a problem with Americans having a holier than thou attitude because of their nationality, that we're some how purer, more virtuous and less vile than any other invading force that has ever seized territory for our own gain (and I mean Iraq, not Afghanistan- Iraq was purely for profit and Bush's getting his jollies off, whereas going after Afghanistan was because that's where the people who attacked us were).

And why not say what you are thinking? What is wrong with saying what you believe?

[Guest]

Hang him high in a public display.

Let the rest of the world know what they have coming if they feel so inclined to murder 3,000 people who just went to work that morning.

This guy is not a soldier.

He is a criminal, an accomplice in the commission of murder.

He could have walked away at anytime before 9-11 and warned the Govt. of what was coming and lived as a hero the rest of his life, he chose to carry on the plot.

Everyone is screaming about the prisoner treatment.

Who bought the treatment to the attention of authorities ?

A U.S. SOLDIER !!!!!!!

So do not compare this terrorist scumbag to any US serviceman.

Both had their choices and both chose their paths !!!!!!!!!

[THE_DITCH_DOCTOR]

Ah....and I bet you're a card carrying Republican too.....

Yeah, he is a scumbag, but we've got more than a few of those ourselves- Bush, Cheney, Lyndie England, Rumsfeld, etc. I don't hear you calling for them to be hung high for their crimes.

[battlemedic345]

I was offended by Kristoph's comments, not your USAF.

[Guest]

Ah....and I bet you're a card carrying Republican too.....

And that statement means what ?

Yeah, he is a scumbag, but we've got more than a few of those ourselves- Bush, Cheney, Lyndie England, Rumsfeld, etc. I don't hear you calling for them to be hung high for their crimes.

We do that every 4 years, it's called an election.

England ?

Aint that one of the soldiers acting under the command of authority figures ?

At least that was one Judges opinion.

There is a big difference between war and terrorism.

Look at the changes in America and the world for that matter since 9-11.

America aint perfect but it sure beats the hell out of any other country.

[THE_DITCH_DOCTOR]

Ah....and I bet you're a card carrying Republican too.....

And that statement means what ?

Yeah, he is a scumbag, but we've got more than a few of those ourselves- Bush, Cheney, Lyndie England, Rumsfeld, etc. I don't hear you calling for them to be hung high for their crimes.

We do that every 4 years, it's called an election.

England ?

Aint that one of the soldiers acting under the command of authority figures ?

At least that was one Judges opinion.

There is a big difference between war and terrorism.

Look at the changes in America and the world for that matter since 9-11.

America aint perfect but it sure beats the hell out of any other country.

OK, I'll admit the Republican comment was a bit out of line.

As for the election being a punishment for crimes- that's like saying that we should let Saddam off the hook now that he's out of office. Personally the last election was a joke because we can't keep the uneducated and easily frightened masses away from the polls. Democracy in action the Republicans called it- fear mongering is all their campaign amounted to. >60% of Americans believe Iraq was behind 9-11....gee, I wonder who planted that idea in their thick heads. Further proof I think that argues for requiring people to take and pass a test of world affairs and other topics before being allowed any where even NEAR a voting booth.

And no, the judge threw out England's plea agreement because he felt that she was getting off too easily by claiming that she was just following orders Yes, you punish ALL those who are guilty- from the top all the way to the bottom. It won't happen but it does change the fact that it should. If you're given an unlawful order, you're still guilty if you follow it. I seem to remember that being taught to all of us in basic training.

As for America being better than any country out there- yes, it could be much worse, but there are places with a much better track record for the things that count (human rights, etc) than we've had recently. The only thing no one can top American on is being a good source of fodder for comedians and the ability to bomb people of different religious and ethnic backgrounds who have done little to deserve it.

[Richard B the EMT]

I remember one election day: the woman in the voting machine was throwing the voting levers with some vehemence, saying, as she did so, "Take that! And that! And you take that!"

[Guest]

As for the election being a punishment for crimes- that's like saying that we should let Saddam off the hook now that he's out of office. Personally the last election was a joke because we can't keep the uneducated and easily frightened masses away from the polls. Democracy in action the Republicans called it- fear mongering is all their campaign amounted to. >60% of Americans believe Iraq was behind 9-11....gee, I wonder who planted that idea in their thick heads. Further proof I think that argues for requiring people to take and pass a test of world affairs and other topics before being allowed any where even NEAR a voting booth.

So, you are saying that not every citizen deserves a vote ?

Voting is a birth right, no matter your education,no matter your background, I would love to see you argue that point to the civil rights pioneers that fought and died so that all persons can vote.

As for America being better than any country out there- yes, it could be much worse, but there are places with a much better track record for the things that count (human rights, etc) than we've had recently. The only thing no one can top American on is being a good source of fodder for comedians and the ability to bomb people of different religious and ethnic backgrounds who have done little to deserve it.

Human Rights ?

We have more social programs than any country out there.

We need to improve in the area of health care but when you look at the deadbeats we already have,milking the system,I can't blame the Govt. for not wanting to do more.

We take care of the disabled, the elderly,the unfortunate.

There are govt. grants and programs that allows any person to better themselves.

If you violate the law in this country you are afforded more rights than the Govt. prosecuting you.

If you are convicted you gain more rights than the guards charged to protect you.

Bombing people of different religious and ethnic backgrounds who have done little to deserve it ?

Do you think the Affgany Govt. was gonna hand over binLaden ?

We told them to and they laughed.

Do you think the Iraqis were gonna hand over Saddam ?

We bent over backwards for Saddam, he violated every sanction placed upon him.

The British handed over terror suspects.

The French handed over terror suspects.

The Germans handed over terror suspects.

The French and Germans were against the war because of what we were gonna uncover.

They were in Saddam's pocket.

Hell, look at the UN.

Look at the oil for food programs.

No wonder the UN didn't want us there.

When we got to Iraq, we should have found a Govt. near broke due to the sanctions, we found a people near broke, dependent upon welfare and a leader as wealthy as he could get.

The religious affiliation of the countries had nothing to do with the reasons for the war.

If the pilots of 911 had been Mormons would we have invaded Utah ?

Probably not but we would have been given the persons in charge, if we had to use force to get to them I'm sure we would have but not because he's a Mormon.

Ethnic reasons ?

Tell that to the people of Bosnia, Africa or any other 3rd world country whose people have been slaughtered by their neighbors.

We made mistakes during World War II by imprisoning the Japs in this country.

Did we line them up and cut their heads off ?

Did we ship them off to Japan ?

America enforced the laws concerning hate crimes to protect Muslims in this country after 911.

Were our citizens in Muslim nations afforded the same protections ?

Let me ask you this USAFMEDIC.

What does your name mean ?

[THE_DITCH_DOCTOR]

Yes, I was in the Air Force. So? That doesn't mean I support the invasion of a country that was no direct threat to us. In fact, I used to hold much the same attitude you did until I went in the military (I actually respected Bush a little up until he invaded Iraq). I've been in the service, I've seen how it operates and I must say that because I had the nerve to serve my country, I have far more of a right to say what I believe than does someone who has never worn a military uniform.

If you think the US has such great humanitarian programs, look at Guantanamo and what Bush would like to do to his own citizens who disagree with him which can be summed up in two words: Patriot Act. Fair comparisons could be drawn between that document, which I believe did stem from fear of the unknown more than any tangible perceived threat, and the Ermächtigungsgesetz (The Enabling Act) passed by the Nazis after the election of Adolf Hitler as Chancellor. The comparisons to Hitler pretty much end right there (other than the fact that he and Bush could be classified as sociopaths), because Hitler was originally elected in a fair election (unlike Bush's first time around), Hitler became a drug addict AFTER coming to office (unlike Bush who was a cocaine addict and alcoholic with multiple DUIs), Hitler was at least moderately intelligent (although, like Bush, he was totally out of touch with reality), etc.

Voting is not a right, it's a privilege- you can lose your ability to vote under certain circumstances. I'm not saying that you should not be allowed to vote because of ethnicity, race, creed, color, etc. I'm suggesting that we require at least a moderate level of awareness to events and some degree of basic education. There's nothing civil rights oriented about this, it is about someone being able to meaningfully participate in our society. Do you see my point?

The invasion of Afghanistan was called for- we went after those who attacked us. The action against Iraq was not warranted in the slightest. There was not (and still is not) any concrete evidence that Saddam was a direct threat to us. The Saudis had more to do with 9-11 than probably anyone else but we didn't kick their door in- we went after the man who liked to most openly poke fun at Bush and his father.

Yes he did all manner of horrible things to his own people, but they were not willing to rise up against me- and don't feed me the line that they didn't have the ability. Everyone in that country was armed, better than any American. We won our freedom from the most powerful country on the planet because we wanted it. I've seen nothing to show that the average Iraqi wanted us to force them to become a representational democracy. We can't make it work anything beyond barely functioning in this country, so why do we need to make every country on the planet a democracy- which will never happen. It's a pipe dream from a delusional sociopath.

[Alcomedicism]

As for the election being a punishment for crimes- that's like saying that we should let Saddam off the hook now that he's out of office. Personally the last election was a joke because we can't keep the uneducated and easily frightened masses away from the polls. Democracy in action the Republicans called it- fear mongering is all their campaign amounted to. >60% of Americans believe Iraq was behind 9-11....gee, I wonder who planted that idea in their thick heads. Further proof I think that argues for requiring people to take and pass a test of world affairs and other topics before being allowed any where even NEAR a voting booth.

So, you are saying that not every citizen deserves a vote ?

Voting is a birth right, no matter your education,no matter your background, I would love to see you argue that point to the civil rights pioneers that fought and died so that all persons can vote.

As for America being better than any country out there- yes, it could be much worse, but there are places with a much better track record for the things that count (human rights, etc) than we've had recently. The only thing no one can top American on is being a good source of fodder for comedians and the ability to bomb people of different religious and ethnic backgrounds who have done little to deserve it.

Human Rights ?

We have more social programs than any country out there.

We need to improve in the area of health care but when you look at the deadbeats we already have,milking the system,I can't blame the Govt. for not wanting to do more.

We take care of the disabled, the elderly,the unfortunate.

There are govt. grants and programs that allows any person to better themselves.

If you violate the law in this country you are afforded more rights than the Govt. prosecuting you.

If you are convicted you gain more rights than the guards charged to protect you.

Bombing people of different religious and ethnic backgrounds who have done little to deserve it ?

Do you think the Affgany Govt. was gonna hand over binLaden ?

We told them to and they laughed.

Do you think the Iraqis were gonna hand over Saddam ?

We bent over backwards for Saddam, he violated every sanction placed upon him.

The British handed over terror suspects.

The French handed over terror suspects.

The Germans handed over terror suspects.

The French and Germans were against the war because of what we were gonna uncover.

They were in Saddam's pocket.

Hell, look at the UN.

Look at the oil for food programs.

No wonder the UN didn't want us there.

When we got to Iraq, we should have found a Govt. near broke due to the sanctions, we found a people near broke, dependent upon welfare and a leader as wealthy as he could get.

The religious affiliation of the countries had nothing to do with the reasons for the war.

If the pilots of 911 had been Mormons would we have invaded Utah ?

Probably not but we would have been given the persons in charge, if we had to use force to get to them I'm sure we would have but not because he's a Mormon.

Ethnic reasons ?

Tell that to the people of Bosnia, Africa or any other 3rd world country whose people have been slaughtered by their neighbors.

We made mistakes during World War II by imprisoning the Japs in this country.

Did we line them up and cut their heads off ?

Did we ship them off to Japan ?

America enforced the laws concerning hate crimes to protect Muslims in this country after 911.

Were our citizens in Muslim nations afforded the same protections ?

Let me ask you this USAFMEDIC.

What does your name mean ?

Voting is not a right, it is a privilege, just as driving is. Not everyone needs to be voting as not everyone needs to be driving. When I voted in this last election, I did some researching on both sides for all the major issues, including 9/11 and the Iraqi invasion. I will say that I did not vote for Bush, but I also unhappily voted for Kerry, he was the better of the two wackos we had to choose from. It makes me angry when people just check the box for whoever they think is the most popular. Sadly, anymore nowdays the Presidential Election is nothing more than a high-school popularity vote. With the mudslinging coming from BOTH sides.

Also if you notice, felons do not get to vote. they had that PRIVILEGE taken away when they decided for themselves to disobey the law. Also if a person does not vote in any election then they also have given up the privilege of complaining how things are.

And most hate crime laws were first enforced and brought about during and after the civil rights movement. Remember when Affirmative Action first took place? The black woman had first dibs on the factory job over the caucasian male. This law was put in place to ensure that employers did not choose employees solely on skin color or sex, when in fact it sent the discrimination the other direction to the caucasian males. And yes I do know a few hispanics, blacks, laotians, japanese people that are racist against caucasians so racism and hate crimes come from ALL RACES AND ETHENIC GROUPS. We are just as guilty of hate crimes (Abu Ghraib is a prime example) as Bin Laden is.

I have to agree with USAF here, and not just because he's Stephen, but because he is seeing things from both sides of the spectrum. He's been in the military and hes seen it from there, and now he is a civilian and hes seeing it from here too.

It is sad that death row inmates are living in better conditions than the free citizens are. Death row inmates get free cable TV in their cells, they can receive packages from home, they get three full meals a day, their healthcare is paid for. They also get one phone call a day to home. They get bi-weekly visitations from family. Some prisons even allow internet access for death-row inmates - although limited. Death row inmates usually wait 8-12 years before being executed.

When we have soldiers overseas dying for a situation that we shouldnt even be in right now. The soldiers dont have cable TV in airconditioned cells, they have to listen to local jibber-jabber radio, read letters from home that are close to 3 or 4 mos old. They are lucky if they even get a chance to call home or get withing 100 ft of a computer with internet access. And NO visitations from family. The soldiers are lucky if they even get to see their next meal, and alot of times they literally have to eat on the run if they plan on eating all, often with sand in it. No our soldiers are not starving to death, just that they get little time to eat a relaxing meal.

They dont know from one minute to the next if they will ever see their families again.

If you ask me, Id say thats a more than a little messed up. Not right at all. We shouldnt even be in Iraq right now. Afghanistan I can understand, but Iraq, NO, NO, NO. We need to bring our men and women out of Iraq back to home.

Our healthcare has become a healthSCARE! People are rufusing to even seek basic healthcare due to the lack of the ability to afford it. Heck, even I am a part of that crowd. I have even refused an ambulance because I knew I could not afford it, and I also attempted to refuse it the second time, but was of no use because my SMCs/PMSs were all messed up on scene. I also need various medications but because I do not qualify for Medicaid/Medicare and cannot afford private insurance, and I do not work for a company that provides group health insurance, I cannot not afford it. Yes we have top-notch hospitals, doctors, nurses, pre-hospital care, home health care and other good programs, but what good are they if people have no access to it due to their income?? Also in some places, healthcare is a monopoly to the local community. When youre the only doctor within a 50 mi radius, yes you can make your pts wait 2-4 hours to see you because many pts who do not feel good are unwilling to drive more than 50 miles to see a doctor and get their prescriptions.

Socialized Medicine sounds like a good idea. I admit it still would be better off than what America has right now, but it too has its flaws. Some people have to wait 3-4 hours at an ER before they can see a doctor, just depends on how emergent their condition is. But at the same time, taxes would have to be raised to afford such a system, and you know how most Americans are about higher taxes. I know Sweden taxes their citiznes up to 44% of their incomes on every paycheck they receive, BUT their healthcare system is far better off than ours, and what they make is what they bring home. I know this because I have a very good friend of mine that lives there and we have had many discussions over this topic. He is happy where he is. Over there no one is severely impoverished and no one is filthy rich (ok except for the Swedish royalty)

America is a great country, no doubt. But a holier then thou attitude is what is going to cause this great country to fall. Look at history and Germany. They had the same problem after WWI and look what happened to them after WWII. They might have been a great country but they had that bad attitude and soon become much hated up until the end of the cold war, and still much hated by many people around the world. We need to take a history lesson and learn from the mistakes of others because we damn sure cant make of them ourselves.

-Alcomedicism