what would you do in this situation as a EMT-B

[JPINFV]

Coming just out of class recently I would have to follow the book. If it is invalid DNR than I must work the code. However calling medical control is a great idea. I would hope I or my partner would of thought of this and than we could legally follow the pt wishes.

Of course the question then is, "What is a valid DNR?"

[speedygodzilla]

Of course the question then is, "What is a valid DNR?"

the way I remember is that a valid DNR must be sign by the patient and the doctor that being if the patient is competent to sign it.

[JPINFV]

:Looks at thread:

:looks at his posts:

:looks at thread:

:looks at posts again regarding local protocols that differs from what the "class/book" states:

:looks back at thread, shrugs, and gives up:

the way I remember is that a valid DNR must be sign by the patient and the doctor that being if the patient is competent to sign it.

At least in California, the physician signature is stating that there is no condition that the patient has that might change the patient's opinion. It is more of an informed concent than a competence (if the patient is not competent, then a family member can make such decisions).

[Pro_EMT]

I would have the EMT "prepare to begin cpr". As you got doctors orders to to stop resusitiation.

and i would document it as pulseless and apneic, BLS/ALS started CPR- family doctor advised ALS/BLS to stop CPR @ date and time.

The only problem with having him pronounced dead in the back of your rig is that its now a crime scene and you have to wait for the coroner to come.. Per NJ guidelines.

[EMS49393]

The only problem with having him pronounced dead in the back of your rig is that its now a crime scene and you have to wait for the coroner to come.. Per NJ guidelines.

Now that's just silly. Is any hospital room or any nursing home room automatically a crime scene in NJ? What a horrible waste of resources. No wonder the homicide rate is what it is. :roll:

[Pro_EMT]

Now that's just silly. Is any hospital room or any nursing home room automatically a crime scene in NJ? What a horrible waste of resources. No wonder the homicide rate is what it is. :roll:

That is why NJ EMS system blows. Per NJ protocol if a body is pronounced dead it must "remain in the postion declared dead for investigation" that is why NJ EMS your eather DOA or dead at hospital.

[EMT001]

A DNR not signed by a Doctor is INVALID and hence, is not to be followed. Now, like you said, you called your doctor, explained your situation and was told to not attempt resuscitation. THAT IS valid. A verbal order from a doctor is as good as any written order. If I were the EMT in this situation, since they do not have ONLINE medical command, I would begin resuscitation efforts, and when the medics arrived, they would contact their medical command and get orders to cease efforts. So you did the right. I would have done it the same way.

You can get online medical control in NJ. Just call either ARMC ED and ask to speak to a doc. This isn't done frequently, but it is an option. Chances are, and especially working in the city, that on a call where med control was needed, a medic unit would be on location also. Obviously, they could call control direct.

[EMT001]

I would have the EMT "prepare to begin cpr". As you got doctors orders to to stop resusitiation.

and i would document it as pulseless and apneic, BLS/ALS started CPR- family doctor advised ALS/BLS to stop CPR @ date and time.

The only problem with having him pronounced dead in the back of your rig is that its now a crime scene and you have to wait for the coroner to come.. Per NJ guidelines.

HAHA - I think a former NJ medic who now posts on this board can tell you a story about pronouncing in the back of an ambulance enroute to the hospital.

[Pro_EMT]

HAHA - I think a former NJ medic who now posts on this board can tell you a story about pronouncing in the back of an ambulance enroute to the hospital.

I would not lie about our protocols... I had one medic, who I did not get along with and he got orders to pronounce in the back of the rig, once that was done he made our crew pull over and take our rig out of service. A police officer had to take us back to HQ and a police officer had to wait on scene by the rig untill a coroner came. PD and BLS made a report and ive not seen him again on a call.

[EMT001]

I would not lie about our protocols... I had one medic, who I did not get along with and he got orders to pronounce in the back of the rig, once that was done he made our crew pull over and take our rig out of service. A police officer had to take us back to HQ and a police officer had to wait on scene by the rig untill a coroner came. PD and BLS made a report and ive not seen him again on a call.

Not saying that you were were not telling the truth. I know NJ, trust me. Maybe we are talking about the same incident.