What would you do?

[JoelEMT]

Thanks USAF for standing up for that which is right; quite possibly in the face of many accusations and persecutions. I have met others elsewhere that for similar comments have received threats to person/property as well as have been labeled as a traitor. I can respect a man that puts personal feelings aside and does that which may fly in the face of the majority. I admire your courage, conviction and example. Thanks again.

Joel

[Dlagwa]

HEY USAF, SOOOO Beautifully put! However make sure your off duty when you meet OBL in the alley way! Otherwise I would like to use your statement for a class information use if I may? I shall wait for your okay. Wa'Do (Thank You and Blessings) Dlagwa ("Jay" in Cherokee)

[THE_DITCH_DOCTOR]

By all means you can use it. I don't have a problem in the world with it.

[lemonlimeEMT]

Yeah, I completely agree with you USAF, but its easier said than done (in the case of Osama). As much as I would love to say I'd save him, because I couldn't let an innocent die, I know that there is a part of me that would want him to burn-justice right? As for my question, just so guys know my opinion I would save the strangers. I don't think I could live with myself knowing that I let 5 people die just because I wanted to save someone I cared about. And to EMT001, yeah I'm taking intro to west. philosophy.

[emtnerd]

I would try and save the strangers regardless of who they are....I know my brother would understand.

[tunnelrat83]

I would like to think i could do as USAF suggests... I may get him out.. and then kick his ass and then hand him over... but if i saved him from the fire... i would get him out and he would be a sack of patatos when i gave him to the cops... :-D

i would hope atleast that is what i would do

and Sibling...

[emt_hound]

How would you ever know you only have time to save only one set of people?

I think I would go w/ the five and hope I had time to go back. Utilitarianism...man, it's a trip.

[ambogrl]

I agree with USAF... when the day comes that you pick and choose who you help and who you don't, it's time to leave emergency services.

This is the total truth. When you start deciding who lives and dies well... if I may quote my self from another thread..."Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be too eager to deal out death and judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends"

Gandalf

I must say siblings but since they are all in the fire service they can figure out how to get out all by themselves, we hope anyways. So when it comes to my basic ems standard I look towards Tolkien and my the nerdy side of me must agree with the utopian way of things but in the end I probably would choose the sibling first and go back for the others....because after all I'm still human.

~Ambo

[Ridryder 911]

Truth, probably save my sibling. I could deal with therapy of the others. However' it is one of those philosophical questions that no-one really knows until placed in that position.

Be safe,

Ridryder 911

[Moosey]

USAF,

I don't know how to feel about your reply to the Bin Laden question. On a moral level, of course I agree with you. On a moral level, of course I would save the five people rather than my sister. On a moral level, of course I'm a perfect human being.

But let me spin it this way.

I live in New York City. I was 14 the day the twin towers came down, and I will freely admit I cried like a baby. My birthday was the following day, and for it as a little 'present' I got a day off of school for transit problems and the smell of nearly 3,000 dead bodies (along with God else knows what) coming in through my window. I was too young to do anything about it at the time. I couldn't take a CFR class, I couldn't take an EMT class. If I had been down there there would have been NOTHING I could have done--and I was trapped in the Bronx till 4 that day anyway, before the transit got back up.

Well, now I'm 18. In a couple weeks I start my EMT course, and I will be immensely glad for it. EMS is something I've wanted to do for a long, long time, and I am grateful that I will finally have the chance to do something worthwhile with my life instead of rotting away in school (yes, I do plan to continue college, but I will also be an EMT part-time or volunteer).

But a part of my city died that day--a part that has never truly been restored. Yes, we've moved on, but there are still the little reminders--the "look for suspicious packages" signs, the mass-casualty exercises in the subway, the fact that there are National Guardsmen in Penn Station and Times Square. A part of New York died that day, and perhaps the country too. I never liked people in the Midwest waiving yellow ribbons and American flags after 9/11--actually, I wasn't so keen on the flag-waving here either, because what good does a flag do except breed a 'more-patriotic-than-thou' atmosphere?--because they simply were not there. They didn't see the black clouds with their own eyes. They didn't see the people crying, didn't have to wonder where their children were, or their families*. Most people who waved flags and shouted murder didn't lose a family member, didn't know anyone who lost family. I knew two people who were supposed to be in the towers that day and for some reason decided not to go to work.

My sister went to Stuyvesant high school--blocks away from the WTC site. She and (to my knowledge) everyone from her school got home okay, but we were TERRIFIED for her. She and I are very close. There's nobody I trust more in the world than her, and I would go to the ends of the earth for her--whatever the cost--because that's what family does. We stand by each other, through thick and thin, and we protect each other.

So my point is this. No, I would not save Bin Laden. In fact, I would probably run up that ladder and take whatever I had on me--an axe, if I were a fireman, an O2 can if an EMT, down to a pocketknife and shoes--and stomp the ever-loving sh*t out of him. I wouldn't care if I got censured or fired. I wouldn't care if we both burned. There are some things as human beings you do not do, and he's done many. I would have no compunction about ending his life--and I am a pacifist and a firm believer in due process and the legal system.

If I were a perfect person, I would save Bin Laden and the 5 strangers. But I'm not. I don't know if that makes me weak--if it makes me unfit for EMS. But I know that if either of those situations arises, my sister will live, and Bin Laden will die. Because I could never live with myself any other way.

So USAF, I don't know where you come from or where you live. I don't know if you lost family at the WTC--I'm thankful I didn't. I respect your views, and in a perfect and intellectual world, I would do the same thing as you. I don't have any problem with your choice in this, and I'm not trying to be confrontational--not at all. But there are some things I feel very strongly about--and those two issues are among them.

Though in all fairness, I might pick up that telephoto lens before I went into the building... I love a good picture :wink: Though, speaking as a photographer, a wide-angle from up close would be better--more fire, better coverage, and my hands would be a lot closer to his neck. My father always says the old Nikon F's were cameras you could beat someone to death and then take their picture with--we have one sitting around, I might as well test the theory :twisted:

*NOTE: I AM NOT TRYING TO CRITICIZE PEOPLE FOR PATRIOTISM. I love my country just as much as anybody. Thought-out patriotism--patriotism in the Jefferson/Washington/Adams sense of the word, that understands that speech and debate is a necessary thing to improve a society--I support wholeheartedly, even when what people say disagrees with what I say. What I don't support is blind patriotism--blind allegiance to a government without thinking it through, or simple mass agreeance with those in charge. In the days just after 9/11, anyone who criticized the Powers That Be were considered by most people to be unAmerican (whatever that means)--which is the greatest travesty in a country that prides itself on freedom of expression.

If anyone wants to disagree with anything I've said, I welcome debate. I welcome a discussion of ideas. I am open to your thoughts and I don't criticize people for their opinions--as long as they have been thought through. I welcome your comments, and I hope I've not offended anyone with what I've said. This is a deeply personal topic for everyone, especially those from the City. People feel very strongly about it, just as I do. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't listen to each others' ideas and hear them--maybe even heed them. I'm sorry that USAF had to post something about people having problems with what he said, and in an almost-confrontational manner. I'm not attacking him. I'm not attacking anyone. I apologize for the length of this rant, and hope that it has given others a different view on the subject. I again would like to say that I welcome debate, public or private, if someone has something to add to my views or whether they'd like to criticize me for it. I, unlike governments I could name, am not afraid of free speech.

Moosey

"They that would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"--Ben Franklin