What would you do?

[lemonlimeEMT]

Hey I get what you are saying Moosey, but I don't think it's entirely fair. You talked about how you

never liked people in the Midwest waiving yellow ribbons and American flags after 9/11--actually, I wasn't so keen on the flag-waving here either, because what good does a flag do except breed a 'more-patriotic-than-thou' atmosphere?--because they simply were not there. They didn't see the black clouds with their own eyes. They didn't see the people crying, didn't have to wonder where their children were, or their families*. Most people who waved flags and shouted murder didn't lose a family member, didn't know anyone who lost family. I knew two people who were supposed to be in the towers that day and for some reason decided not to go to work.

You almost come across as to say we (the rest of the country) don't deserve to carry flags or say patriotic things, or feel the loss of 9/11. Just because someone doesn't live there, doesn't mean that they weren't affected. I mean, look at me for example. The plane that crashed into the second tower, my cousin was supposed to be on it but she was running late and missed her plane. My uncle was working in the pentagon at the time of the crash. I sat in my classes at school, terrified, thinking that my uncle and cousin might be dead; I didn't find out for 2 days that my uncle was ok because the phone lines were so busy. I live thousands of miles away from NYC but I was still tremendously impacted by 9/11. The whole country was. But Moosey, I know that's not what you were trying to say, so I won't take offense to anything you say/said.

But as the for the fire question at hand; I agree with you. Theoretically, I morally should, and would, choose the five strangers. It's that whole for the greater good utilitarian thought, but in reality what would happen is very different. I mean my brother and sister are my best friends, they are my rock and pillars, without them I would be lost. I came pretty close to loosing my sister a year ago, and now I almost say screw the strangers I'm saving my sibling; a year ago I would have said without a doubt save the strangers, my brother and sister would understand, but when you come so close to loosing them, your perspective changes. Now, as much as I rather say save the strangers (and as much I know I should), in reality I think I would try to save my sibling first.

[Moosey]

Lemonlime,

I don't mean to cheapen anyone's opinions or their grief--everyone feels strongly about this. I just dislike when tourists from, say, Arkansas, who didn't risk anybody, who didn't know anyone who was nearby or should have been there, who never had to deal with the consequences, tell me "Oh, I felt so bad on 9/11." I realize they felt grief. But their grief cannot begin to be compared to mine, just as mine cannot begin to be compared to that of my sister (who was very close), or to that of the FDNY and NYPD officers who lost their partners and were there. Sure, people have a right to grieve about 9/11--it was a terrible thing. But I get sick to my stomach when people from thousands of miles away attempt to compare how they felt about it to how I did.

I'm thankful that your family was okay. I'm not talking about those who suffered direct fear of harm to them and theirs; I'm talking about people who never were at risk, who weren't close. It's different seeing it on CNN than it is to walk down the street and see dozens of cops on the way to the train. The subtle reminders haunted us for months--they still do. There was a cop car parked a block from my house that was stopping any van or truck on its way to deliver goods, checking for bombs, and it stayed there for quite some time -- ever day for over two years, as I recall. There are some things people simply could not have experienced without being here, and I just don't like it when people from thousands of miles attempt to regale with their tales of grief. They simply weren't here. And that's okay. But don't try to tell me you (and I mean the unaffected 'you', not lemonlime in particular) feel the same grief as I do. It wasn't your community, it wasn't your home. You never dealt with the smell or the taste, the fear, the transit problems, the massive number of cops on the street, the National Guardsmen in Times Square and Penn Station. Nobody's life changed to the extent it did here--except possibly in DC (I wouldn't know). So I accept your sympathies. But not your grief.

As for the question of flag-waving, anyone can wave a flag if they like, or say patriotic things. That's not what bugs me. What bugs me is the assumption that if you DONT do those things, you're UNpatriotic. I don't like the idea that just because I disagree with the leaders of the government, it means I'm unamerican or unpatriotic. I love my country as much as anybody else. But I don't blindly follow. When the 'more-patriotic-than-thou' atmosphere arises--like after 9/11--people who support debate are shouted down by those who blindly follow the leaders. It's not thought-out patriotism that I mind--I don't mind anybody's beliefs as long as they're thought through, though I may disagree with their conclusions. But it's patriotism out of fear that bothers me--'patriotism' bred of fear and distrust, and the urge to agree with something greater than onesself. That's not patriotism, that's blind allegiance, and terrible things happen when leaders are followed without questioning. Examples in history are all too easy to find.

And THATS what I meant by the Franklin quote, by the way.

[lemonlimeEMT]

Oh well I agree with you about the blind allegiance; I think that if you believe in something, you should know why, and the only way to know why is to think it through. And its sad to think that in the wake of 9/11 people began to feel that you were unamerican just because you disagree with our nations leaders. The right to freedom of speech and expression have been the pillars on which our nation stands and it is a sad thing when people start to forget that. The very fact that you do disagree and you say something about it makes you very much American. As far as the unpatriotic thing, well that's not entirely fair. The definition of patriotism is "love or devotion of country and willingness to sacrifice for it". I think that most people feel by waving a flag, or saying 'American' things, they are showing their love of country, their support and devotion. And if anyone ever said that you were unpatriotic just because you didn't do these things, well then they are just a little confused on the definition. True to be patriotic you have to love our country and feel some ties of devotion and you have to support our country in some way, that's just from the definition. But no where does it say how you have to show your support or love.

And I didn't mean to sound like I was saying my grief/pain/whatever is just as bad/important as those who live NYC. All those who were there, who smelt the smells, walked the streets, saw everything with their own eyes felt (and I'm sure in many respects still feel) unmeasurable, incomparable pain. You guys went through something that the rest of the country could never fully comprehend. I get that and I'm not trying to compare my grief or whatever to yours, its just that it really bugs me when someone says that line about how 'you weren't there'. When someone says something like that, whether they mean to or not, it sort of comes across as saying you weren't there, so you don't count.

[Moosey]

Lemonlime,

Sorry. Must be the New York arrogance in me. And you haven't been trying to do anything of the sort--I've just met people who have, and it bugs me. I was never saying anything about your personal feelings on it--I have no right to. Just venting. If any of that offended you, got under your skin, etc., you have my deepest apologies.

Friends?

Moosey

[RichmondMedik]

Moosey,

If you think that affected just NYC then you need to look at the implications of that day -- but as you said you were only 14 -- wait a few more years and you may understand how it affected the WHOLE country and not just one city

Paul

[EMT001]

Yeah, I completely agree with you USAF, but its easier said than done (in the case of Osama). As much as I would love to say I'd save him, because I couldn't let an innocent die, I know that there is a part of me that would want him to burn-justice right? As for my question, just so guys know my opinion I would save the strangers. I don't think I could live with myself knowing that I let 5 people die just because I wanted to save someone I cared about. And to EMT001, yeah I'm taking intro to west. philosophy.

Thought so. So, after you've debated it in class, what do you think? Who should you save?

[mediccjh]

Blood is thicker than water, so my sibling first.

[Guest]

Depends On if My sibling and I are speaking. Had to throw some humor in on this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the case of Osama put him in a room filled with family members of those who perished on 9/11. God Bless them and there family's.

[lemonlimeEMT]

Moosey, no hard feelings-you didn't offend me.

Well, EMT001, after debating in class, the general consensus was to save the five strangers. On another note, our teacher asked us this question (very similar) about something that actually happened. A woman was working in the 5th ward (worst part of town, not even the cops go there) teaching an ESL class. One night a woman came bursting in the door screaming "he's gonna kill me! please help me!" A few minutes later her pimp came to the door, started pounding on it, yelling "if you don't give me back my woman I'm going to kill you all". And our philosophy teacher asked us, what would you do: try to help the woman or give her up? (note that this was before cell phones and even if they could call the cops, they probably wouldn't come). She made us analyze the situation using a benefit/harm analysis chart. Anyways, our class decided to give up the prostitute, and as it turns out that's exactly what the ESL teacher did. She gave up the woman to save the rest of the class.

[rossco_79]

of course I would like to say that I am noble enough to say that I would save five people vs. one, however, in that circumstance I think that I would probably go with my sibling.