Non EMS stopping to help at Accident Scenes

[96xjGuy]

I will stop and offer assistance if there is no emergengy workers on scene or if it is MCI and only 1 unit, other than that I keep driving.

About professionalism, I haven't much to say, some scenes I was treated like"Ricky Rescue" and others I was a valued pair of hands. But someone once told me "Be careful about the toes you step on today, they may be connected to the ass you have to kiss tommorrow."

my $0.02,

Joe

[fortsmithman]

If I were passing an accident there was a crew there then I wouldn't offer nles they were overwelmed. To the pramedics and emt's I know of 2 types of people with training that you probably wouldnt turn back they are RN's and MD's.

[reaper]

Dude, this thread is over a year and half old!

BTW- I have turned away many RN's and MD's from a scene. Most have no experience in emergency care.

[fortsmithman]

If it were my service on scene we would not refuse aid from an MD or RN especially a MD because if the pt died and the family sued we could claim we did everything including use an MD. Because if you turn a MD away and counsel for the plaintiff finds out it could turn nasty for the crew. Yes it's liability issues is why we wouldn't turn a MD away and in some jurisdictions you may lose EMS licensing.

[letmesleep]

fortsmithman, congrats on your first "clinical save" of a thread here in EMTcity, first of all!

I am curious how turning away a MD is considered a liability issue? I am also wondering how it is that you would lose your EMS licensing, as well? I see the Canadian flag on your avatar, so it may be that I am just not familiar with the Canadian laws, but I just don't understand how this could be, please help me with this issue.

I started to read this thread, and then realized it was not only J-4, but rotting away in the grave. I then read the last few posts here and it struck me kinda funny, and this is why I responded. With that said, NEVER, NEVER (for me) stop if their is any emergency personnel on the scene, NEVER. If it looks absolutely nasty as hell I would maybe stop, but anything outside of the basics is all that I could do considering I don't even carry gloves off-duty. Once the appropriate personnel arrives, I would give a report and I am out. I can safely say that I have only ever stoped 1 time, and was ONLY because I saw the accident happen.

As far as turning away help, I do it ALL the time, I don't care who you are, or what you are. I give the offering party a very polite thank you, and assure them that the scene is under control. I have NEVER had a complaint called in on me for this action, but I have had people removed as well, including a self proclaiming RN (she never produced any ID stating she was a RN), following her thank you. The reason I do this is to maintain safety on the scene, Unless you work for the district handling the emergency, you become a liability. By-standers that are being used to help (professional or not) run the risk of becoming Pts, causing the crowd of on-lookers to get wound up, or harming a Pt no matter what the intention is. You may not know who these people are, or what their qualifications may be, but by putting them in the mix, you could be handing your life to them. Does that make anybody feel safe?

[JPINFV]

I am curious how turning away a MD is considered a liability issue?

MDs represent the highest level of medical provider. Even though EMS personnel operate under direct orders (standing or otherwise) from the medical director and medical control physicians, the physician on scene is still a physician. This is why every protocol I've seen (not many, but more than 1) have a physician on scene case being handled through online medical control with the physicians talking to each other if possible. Similarly, most systems I've seen are willing to 'hand over the scene' to the physician provided that the physician rides with the patient to the hospital, doesn't give the paramedics any orders outside of their scope of practice, and the care rendered by the physician is consistent with the patient care standards already set in the system.

[toutdoors]

I will stop if there is no EMS on scene, I do have a few pairs of gloves in a small bag with a few 4x4's and what not bandaging. The first aid kit is more for the times my kids get scuffed up hunting, fishing, camping and whatnot, but it is nice to have a few items handy if needed. If EMS is on scene, I don't bother stopping unless it is simply obvious that the crew is in need of help. Such as commercial airliner in a corn field, and one ambulance on scene.

As for the Rn's and MD's on scene, we have have a piece of paper from our state protocols in our EMS clipboard that the doc must read, understand, agree to, and sign if he or she wants to assume care for the pt. Otherwise they are not to interfere with our treatment of the pt. I have been on calls where an MD was on scene and of valuable assistance, and then there are the calls such as a motorcycle vs car where the "doc" on scene said the guy was doing fine, and breathing; only to do our own assessment to find an unresponsive pt breathing about 8 times a minute, shallow, his color matches that of the concrete roadway, and he later coded on us. The "doc" was a podiatrist. He had very little idea of what he was looking at, then again he did not want to assume pt care and he let us do our job, so really no harm no foul there on his part, other than a slightly poor assessment. This is the very reason the two agencies I work for have this part of our protocol so readily available to us.

If someone comes on our scene and offers assistance, it will usually be politely turned down, of course that depends on who the medic is that is working on how polite the refusal will be too.

[Don1977]

There was a bit of a disagreement on this topic, so I'd love to hear your opinions on it.

Q. When a car accident occurs, and someone who has some medical knowledge and training (Like an EMR, MFR) stops to help, to assist with what is needed, provided the actions are in his/her training/authorized ability to do so. EX. Keep a clear airway, hold manual C-Spine, CPR, protect from elements with blanket, update EMS, etc.

If you were responding to this emergency. How do you feel, has this person done the right thing by stopping to help, or should s/he, who has the ability to help, just drive by, and only call 911?

A disagreement on EMTcity??? NOOOOOOO.... Never

[TDP]

Between Calgary and Banff in 2005 -Jan 28, there were 3 cars and 1 truck in the ditch, the truck lost control and landed sideways on its side, up against another vehicle, even though no one was hurt, someone called RCMP/Ambulance and the fire department.

It was a complete waste of personnel, the fire chief wasnt happy but he did say that he's glad no one was killed.

How did the vehicle land on it's side? Chances are,not a waste of anyone's time or resources. Sounds pretty serious to me.

[letmesleep]

MDs represent the highest level of medical provider. Even though EMS personnel operate under direct orders (standing or otherwise) from the medical director and medical control physicians, the physician on scene is still a physician. This is why every protocol I've seen (not many, but more than 1) have a physician on scene case being handled through online medical control with the physicians talking to each other if possible. Similarly, most systems I've seen are willing to 'hand over the scene' to the physician provided that the physician rides with the patient to the hospital, doesn't give the paramedics any orders outside of their scope of practice, and the care rendered by the physician is consistent with the patient care standards already set in the system.

Again, I am not from this area, but the real problem with all of this is that if it is a situation where I or you need a MD on scene, typically we won't have or take the time to check credentials, get paperwork signed as toutdoors talked about, so on and so forth. Short of the Pt being trapped, and needing surgical extrication, I'm not going to waste the time involved in all the CYA crap needed to put this "person" (because thats all they are until proven otherwise) in to play.