AZCEP Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 And there again, reduced supply with increased or similar demand results in greater wages. This is not going to change overnight, and the IAFC/IAFF/Any number of EMS administrators will fight it to the bitter end. An educated workforce would create bigger issues that those in charge would have to reconcile. The cries of the smaller agencies that bemoan the lack of qualified personnel would have to be dealt with. Much like the current system, shortages would happen for a period. The resulting providers would be more dedicated to the profession, and would be better suited to be independent practitioners at some point.
vs-eh? Posted February 22, 2007 Author Posted February 22, 2007 the piece of paper doesn't make the professional. we need to quite acting like ambulance drivers and act professional including training our patients. if i was required to attend a 2 year college i would be unable to attend. no college in the area and i have to support my family. i am currently working on advancing to next level. if ever this happens the rural areas will suffer because people that leave for training will stay gone because they can receive better pay in citys. It happened here and Ontario is likely as rural and probably, (assuming you aren't in Alaska or something) a harsher environment. People will obviously be grandfathered to a point. Eventually however a 2 year college diploma BLS provider will be required. So people want better pay right? So...do you think that you should have better pay first, or better education? Where exactly can that line be drawn? What kind of cash will it take for people to accept a 2 year college diploma for BLS? So say you make $8/hour for your 150 hours of EMT-B greatness. Will a move to say $12 be sufficient? That is a 50% raise...Not too shabby...What if it was only a year and not 2 years? The move from 1 year to 2 years in Ontario for BLS happened from '99-00 (I think). The pay increase since then has roughly gone up 33%. I believe PCP's around 2000 were making high teens/low 20's. Now PCP's make mid 20's to low 30's per hour. Keep in mind that the majority of Ontario PCP's DO NOT have 2 year college diploma's. The cascade effect that new education brings. I am sure the people that were educated in the 80's that are still BLS today, appreciate the salary they now make (thanks in part) to the new REQUIREMENTS that PCP's must have.
BushyFromOz Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 the piece of paper doesn't make the professional. we need to quite acting like ambulance drivers and act professional including training our patients. If i was required to attend a 2 year college i would be unable to attend. no college in the area and i have to support my family. i am currently working on advancing to next level. if ever this happens the rural areas will suffer because people that leave for training will stay gone because they can receive better pay in citys. Are instead advocating that a suitable level of education is not warranted, a suitable level of education is part of what makes professional bodies a recognised profession. Would you then suggest that Dr's dont need as much education? I find the US system fascinating in the sense that what you guys consider the norm and what others around the world are considering the norm do not even come close to each other - it's like comparing pluto to the sun! I see prilliant people here like Rid, AZCEP, vs, paramedicmike etce etc (and you dusty :wink:) coming up with great arguments as to why education is so important, and the responses are all the same "its not what you know, its how you act", "if that happened, then i couldn't be part of it" or my favourite "you cant make me do that, im a volunteer" Its' like people have no willpower. If you really want it, there are ways to get it. Im setting into motion a plan that will get me the education and qualifications i need to attampt a qualified entry as a paramedic in 3-5 years should i not be able to get employment as a student paramedic. Its gonna be a pain in the arse, but i will get there and i can make it happen, and if not its gonna leave me in a great position to become a kick ass emergency room RN Why is it so hard for people to think outside the current square??
paramedicmike Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Why is it so hard for people to think outside the current square?? Because it would mean change. People are inherently afraid of change. They are afraid that if things start changing, their position and role will change. They are afraid that if their role changes they will be left behind. So, rather than exert a little effort and work to adapt with the change, the whine, complain and moan about how hard it is and "woe is me"...and drag everyone else down with the them. [sarcasm}After all, isn't that modern day American EMS? It's all about me? Screw everyone else? Especially the patient? :shock: :shock: :shock: [/sarcasm] If you want it badly enough, you'll find a way to do it. There are ways to get it done so that you and/or your family won't suffer. The mere fact that one would throw out such an excuse says nothing other than it's not wanted badly enough. And that's enough to indicate that maybe one should find another line of work. -be safe
dgmedic Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Voted for 2 yr if that's as high as it will go. The most interesting post I read was regarding a 2 yr degree pre-requisite to entering training. At least one would have a handle on grammar and spelling (aside from the occasional missed key-stroke - and not trying to start an argument...I realize forum informality...but damn, seriously). Oh, and for those that are concerned about folks not going into EMS because of additional personal and familial pressures that would be imposed....could you see about winning over some medical school admissions committees for me? It would be great if I could go ahead and have a few move to my city so I don't have to move my family, sell my house, or go into further debt. That would be super!! Oh, and if you get ahold of Wash U....please have them lower their GPA requirements.....DAMN!! Thanks! Dissuading a few folks away from entering EMS may not be such a bad idea. I am more concerned about having dedicated, competent medics than....well, you get the idea. -dg
BushyFromOz Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Because it would mean change. People are inherently afraid of change. They are afraid that if things start changing, their position and role will change. They are afraid that if their role changes they will be left behind Oh NO!!!! Not the dreaded "C" word :? :shock: :x :evil: :roll:
bassnmedic Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Hell must be freezing over as I am typing this response........I'm actually going to agree with VS. I can't really add to the reasons we need a minimum 2yr. degree, they have pretty much already been stated. Now, just to play devil's advovate, does a degree actually make a person a better medic? I have seen plenty of 4yr degree people that couldn't find their butt with both hands, much less be competent enough to handle patient care issues. Aside from the education level needing to be raised, I believe we need some sort of pre-entry screening to assure that the applicant is not a bona fide idiot. Just my two cents.
DwayneEMTP Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 I see part of the issue to be that when we have these discussions the focus tends to be on the people entering the professions. And for the most part that means kids. (Below 25 or so). I believe it's not so much they are unwilling to do what is best as that they don't know what is best. When I get my medic this fall (God willing) I'll have about 2 ½ years into it. But that is because I found the City before I got too far into my education. When I started looking at medic school my original plan was to go to AMR's 9 month program. I had no idea that that was not an admirable standard! For instance, had I chosen to become a carpenter, it would never have occurred to me to become a contractor first, so that I would be a better carpenter. (In fact it would be much easier to do that then to have completed the education that I added to get my AAS) Certainly I would be a better carpenter, and the profession would be better for me having my contractor's 'cert' but I don't see many contractors pounding nails... We continue to denigrate kids for not meeting a standard that almost none of the people training them have met, almost none of the people they respect (see at work, or those that got them interested in EMS) have met, no one will compensate them for meeting, and having met them (from what I've seen here) will not even distinguish them in the work place later. When I lay it out like that, I feel like a complete idiot for spending thousand of extra dollars and almost two extra years to enter EMS. (Of course feeling like an idiot comes naturally to me...) I'm not sure why any kid would choose to take this route when they don't yet have the life experience to show them that it's not all in the money and/or glory. I guess my point is, to continue the mantra of “So you got your basic? What an idiot.”, “You got your intermediate? Jeez, paramedic wanna-be” “Became a paramedic without a degree? Bottom feeder” “Got your AAS in Emergency medicine? Call me when you get serious with a Bachelors.” When people get all excited and choose to live EMS as a lifestyle they are whackers and there's no shortage of people to tell them that “it's just a job!” Yet when they approach their education as if they were getting any other job...(Meeting min standards to get paid) they are idiots and a disgrace. I guess I'm not really saying that anyone is wrong, just asking, how is any of this helping? I'm 43, having respect where I work is a big deal for me. If I go back to 23-25 and you tell me I need to spend two years +, yet gain no additional respect, advancement opportunities, compensation, or job security...I have got to tell you to go and pound sand. Besides, many of the medics from countries that talk about what losers the US system is are still unable to use capital letters, complete sentences, or create a readable paragraph...So I'm not sure that degrees are even an answer to the problem. So my real question is...What's the next step? Where do we go from here. This poll has once again shown that people with degrees think everyone should have a degree. So now what? How do we move on...? What turns the talk into action? Dwayne
AZCEP Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 Now, just to play devil's advovate, does a degree actually make a person a better medic? Absolutely not. We have all worked with providers that had the bare minimum, and proved themselves extremely capable. I'd wager the flip side has also been true. I have seen plenty of 4yr degree people that couldn't find their butt with both hands, much less be competent enough to handle patient care issues. If we are to gather the support of established medical professionals, this is but the launching point. Proving that we are willing to expand our own education helps to show a dedication to the craft that has been sorely lacking to this point. Aside from the education level needing to be raised, I believe we need some sort of pre-entry screening to assure that the applicant is not a bona fide idiot. Just my two cents. Using the Associates, or two-year degree as the prerequisites is an answer to this problem. Those that complete their degree in order to enter the EMS program, show that they are willing to dedicate themselves to the educational process. While this may not eliminate the bonification you describe, it would at least show that some of the baseline information has been achieved. Then we can build a system that is dedicated to the medicine portion, and ideally turn out better providers.
Just Plain Ruff Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 he he he he said "bonification" but seriously a 2 year degree is just a start. Once we have attained that standard, grandfathered people included, where do we go from there. initial education is great but what's the next step We have decided 2 years is the base. How do we expand and get the recognition and respect we should have.
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