AZCEP Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 Two year degree prior to being allowed to enter a paramedicine program. Get your EMT certification, obtain your Associate's degree, decide if EMS is really the profession you want to be in. Resulting in higher educated, more dedicated providers that better understand how EMS works. Perhaps it would eliminate the "passerby" attitude that some new providers bring with them. EMS is not a stepping stone. It is it's own specialized field of medicine. It does not reliably relate to any other medical endeavor. We need to create providers that can recognize this.
BushyFromOz Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 Four years. (Now the bitching starts about it not taking four years to learn how to do the job. That's a fair argument, but education doesn't just mean knowing what you need to to do the job.) No bitching here. Actually, talking with various people around the country i have come to know in different services, some places will be looking for a 3 year degree and 2 years as a student paramedic before considered qualified, so 5 years in total. Some places are mooting post graduate study of some description in order to be considered to upgrade to intensive care level + 3 or so years on the road as a qualified paramedic. Of course there are those services that still do training in house over a 2 to 3 year period and spit their guys out with a diploma, though im not sure the educational component is of the same quality, hence the movement away from this type of "off the street" recruiting In fact, im almost anticipating this becoming normal mode of operation in the next 5 to 10 years hence why im already looking into post grad study to get ahead of the game :shock:
Just Plain Ruff Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 unfortunately with the more schooling we are going to get the argument, YOU have to pay me more. That is a valid argument if we are talking about services out there who require a 2 year degree or more but many services are happy with just getting someone who passed the emt or medic curriculum. A 2 year degree does the following 1. promotes professionalism in having a better educated employee - those with less education will learn by example and some will even go back to school 2. Provides someone with a well rounded education - remember folks - many people leave the EMS profession after several years to pursue other more lucrative and prestigious careers. Having at least a 2 year degree will help them get to that stage 3. The public can feel better about the profession because the profession finally has the same amount of education time that a basic RN does. If a 2 year degree was required then the employers would be forced to look at keeping educational standards high but unfortunately at this time the bar is not set very high. Consider a small town service or even a service that is in an urban setting. There is nothing written that they have to provide CEU's. Many services still require the employee to foot the bill. Don't even get me started on providing the ability to go to conferences and state wide meetings, there's no money in it for them. Let's take a look at the state requirements - In missouri if I can recall right you need 150 hours of continuing education over a 5 year period giving you 30 hours per year that you have to have. I know of many employers who do not provide education for their employees. If the service does not provide them then you have the requirements of getting to the class, paying out of pocket for your class and then finding a class either that fits in your days off or finding someone to fill your shift. This all leads me to this: The more education that is required for a medic or EMT to get into the field directly will correlate with the amount of continuing education that the state will require. The state can get away with the 150 hours in missouri due to the short training time required for becoming an EMT or medic but what will be in store for these medics and emt's if there is a mandated 2 year degree. I am afraid that with more education comes more continuing education effectively forcing some to really scrounge for classes and education to fulfill the state requirements. This also will directly correlate to the amount of education that the registry requires if you do not live in a registry state. I am all for more education, I have a BA, EMT-P and masters degree as well as several courses in religious studies that I'm taking now. the more the merrier. But is there a limit to the amount of education required for our profession. My wife is a LPN and she is not required to have any Continuing education. I'm not sure what RN's are required to have but it's a far cry from 150 hours in 5 years. Until we have the same status as RN's then we will always have to prove ourselves. So to make a long post short (too late) education is the cornerstone of our profession. But do the ends justify the means? Do we force a 2 year degree, why not go to 4 year degree while we are at it? I know Dust is in favor of this but I am not. I'm not even really in favor of a 2 year degree. I think that if we are to have a 2 year degree requirement then the upkeep of education on our license will get out of hand. IF we can come to a educated medium and a meeting of the minds and not require a huge amount of CEU's to maintain certification then a 2 year degree is a great idea. If we require a 2 year degree and also large amounts of CEU's per year then we are going to force some to leave the profession. A little more information(approximated hours and cost) ACLS 16 hours approx 200 dollars(maybe more) PALS 16 hours approx 200 dollars(maybe more) BTLS 16 hours I believe 200 bucks(maybe more) ABLS 16 hours approx 200 bucks (maybe more) The above do not even cover all the ceu requirements in terms of broken down hours such as cardiac, respiratory, ob, ortho etc etc. You then either go to a refresher of 40 hours. You will need 2 refreshers to get your hours in the 5 years. My refresher was approximately $360.00 Assorted other courses to completely fill your re-registratoin requirements up. If your agency does not provide CEU's or pay for them then we are talking a significant outlay in money to keep your certification. Let's now take a worst case scenario look at future requirements to maintain certification if we require a Associates degree. the feasible requirement could be upwards of 3 times the amount currently required. How can that be fair to the provider? This is only my imagination(my son uses his a lot) and it might not ever get that bad but the way some state agencies and the registry work this might be reality.
AZCEP Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 By increasing the educational requirements, you are in effect, causing a greater demand for those providers that are in the field. More demand, less supply eventually leads to greater salaries being made possible. This would take a significant time to happen. Attrition alone might reduce numbers and increase the workload for a while. Increasing the entry level education also would push EMS from a "technical" job to a profession. This is a status that Nursing finally achieved through a similar route. The entry level degree would also force those that choose to try EMS to put a bit more forthought into the choice. The mantra of "I'm going to try this for a while" has been outmoded, and should not be allowed to continue. From your post Ruffems, it seems that your view has over complicated matters. Continuing education is pursued more vigorously by those that spend more time in achieving their initial license. Knowing how much work it would be to restore it if it is lost self-limits the outcry of increasing requirements. This is not an easy subject to breach without many becoming threatened by the suggestion. It will be a cornerstone of the advancement of the craft.
Just Plain Ruff Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 I agree Azcep, the threat of letting your license lapse and then having to obtain the training and classes would be a daunting task. Unfortunately I work so limited EMS that at the end of my licensure period I will be letting it lapse. First off I cannot afford the classes anymore to renew and also I do not have the time to get the hours. Sure many will say you can get it online but I have a different career path that I'm on so I'll let it lapse. I still have 2 years left on my license so I never say never but to get the amount of classes required would be a herculean effort. It will be an easy decision to let the license lapse as I've not worked in the field for over 6 months and do not see myself going back in the field anytime soon. But I can see how it's a much more pressing issue for those medics and emt's who do not have classes and education to keep their licensure up readily available. To some out there the closest class might be 200 miles away. Azcep you also bring up a good point - increase the education of the providers and have quality providers and the salary and pay go up
Ridryder 911 Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 I believe the current CEU system is a farce, and should be eliminated. Yes, we are one of the few health services that require CEU's for license or certification and see what the results are? Obviously, the system we have is not working. So increasing CEU's is not the answer. Even though nurses 'technically" are not required to have CEU's for relicensure, JCAHO, Magnet Status, Medicare, etc.. requires about the same number or maybe even more in-house CEU's than the usual EMT or Paramedic CEU requirements. Maybe CEU's that meet educational standards and that are only presented by a true educational facility or sanctioned by one, would have more credibility and legitimacy. Most refreshers and CEU's are a joke, and anyone in EMS can attest many are written off due to repeat mundane "read the slide" lectures. Even worse, the new ACLS and other associated courses have become so watered down, one cannot lead credibility to those courses anymore as well. If we did require formal education at least the associate degree level, then maybe we can install a basic general education and professionalism with the understanding of the need of on-going education and professional development. Yes, I would love to see a baccalaureate degree be required, however; I much rather be realistic and have at least some formal education than none at all. R/r 911
Just Plain Ruff Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 I agree on the watered down version of acls and it's cousins I remember my first acls class - no helpers and in a room with 3 evaluators - you had better have known your material. It was not uncommon to fail the class. now we give an open book test, we play jeopardy for the final exam. I was a affiliate faculty ACLS instructor and it wasn't uncommon that we were required to give a student at least 3 chanses to pass the test. the skills stations are a joke - they allow books, cheat sheets and you get a group of people in the station. The strong ones were the ones that every weak student looked toward and there was no requirement that these weak students lead a station. There is a saying among some instructors similar to Geico "so easy a caveman can do it"
Ridryder 911 Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 ..."There is a saying among some instructors similar to Geico "so easy a caveman can do it"".....[/quote] I love that! I'll have to use that on an upcoming class... Unfortunately, as we improve one area, another area degrees... but with a true educational background understanding current standards would be nothing more but semantics and memorization. Similar to what AMA has for CME's at this time. With improved professional status we could also remove our conventions from odd places and have true series of educational seminars with poster positions and research as other health professions have. Of course, the disallowing of patches and stickers would break many hearts.... LOL R/r 911
Just Plain Ruff Posted February 21, 2007 Posted February 21, 2007 OH NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't take away my patches and my badge. the other image that watered down acls and it's cousins bring to mind is the episode of Cheers where Norm got a monkey to wear a postal uniform and had the monkey deliver the mail to Sam. that was a classic episode. One of their best episodes in my opinion.
spenac Posted February 22, 2007 Posted February 22, 2007 the piece of paper doesn't make the professional. we need to quite acting like ambulance drivers and act professional including training our patients. if i was required to attend a 2 year college i would be unable to attend. no college in the area and i have to support my family. i am currently working on advancing to next level. if ever this happens the rural areas will suffer because people that leave for training will stay gone because they can receive better pay in citys.
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