VentMedic Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 I too believe a degree is important but I also think the quality of the clinical training should be tops. I have known Paramedics who have chosen one training program over another by the ease of completing the clinicals. The competency sign-offs are seriously deficient in many schools. The basic college level sciences should be completed prior to applying to a program. Once in the program, the majority of training should focus on skills and relating the skills to the situation. As for as nursing degrees, I thought the 3 year diploma programs produced nurses that were ready for patient care and discouraged any slackers from remaining in the program. These programs were at least 70% hands on and probably would be considered cheap slave labor today. The nursing students lived in dorms adjacent to the hospital and could be put to work at any time of the day or night. By the end of those 3 years, these new grads were pretty seasoned to the profession. Today, some of the 2 and 4 year degree nursing programs are not producing nurses that are ready for patient care at any level. Extensive training must still be done by the hospitals just to get them on the floors. Nursing in the US is still the last clinical health profession to have a "mail-order" program at entry level. This "degree" is still recognized by several states. I, too, like to do classes online. But, when it comes to a profession that deals with human lives, I prefer hands-on education.
Just Plain Ruff Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 well let's see in response to the post about who actually has a degree I have a bachelors I have my EMT-P I have my Masters in Project Management Count 1 for higher education
VentMedic Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 Paramedic certificate (1978) A.S. in Emergency Medical Services (class of 1979 - we were told the degree would be a "must have" in the future) B.S. in Cardiopulmonary Science, M.S. Exercise Physiology
CBEMT Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 well let's see in response to the post about who actually has a degree I have a bachelors I have my EMT-P I have my Masters in Project Management Count 1 for higher education Thanks for the response, but not exactly what I meant. The push seems to be for a degree in Paramedicine, Paramedic Technology is another one I've heard of, or Emergency Medical Services, etc etc. I have a bachelors too, but from the sounds of things it won't be good enough for most people here, since it isn't a science. My question was more, "Who here who wants a 2-year minimum EMS degree actually have at least a 2-year EMS degree?" I'm not opposed to higher education for the profession. But what's my motivation to put myself BACK into debt (before I've even cleared by original college loans) to get a 2-year degree that is going to do exactly zero for my career at this point? The only medic I know who has a degree gets no more money or treatment options than any other medic at his company. Why? Because Medicare doesn't give 2 sh!ts that he has a degree. He's a medic, and that's all that counts. Until it counts for something else, his company and every other has no reason to treat him any different. There has to be a demand before there can be a supply.
Ridryder 911 Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 Thanks for the response, but not exactly what I meant. The push seems to be for a degree in Paramedicine, Paramedic Technology is another one I've heard of, or Emergency Medical Services, etc etc. I have a bachelors too, but from the sounds of things it won't be good enough for most people here, since it isn't a science. My question was more, "Who here who wants a 2-year minimum EMS degree actually have at least a 2-year EMS degree?" I'm not opposed to higher education for the profession. But what's my motivation to put myself BACK into debt (before I've even cleared by original college loans) to get a 2-year degree that is going to do exactly zero for my career at this point? The only medic I know who has a degree gets no more money or treatment options than any other medic at his company. Why? Because Medicare doesn't give 2 sh!ts that he has a degree. He's a medic, and that's all that counts. Until it counts for something else, his company and every other has no reason to treat him any different. There has to be a demand before there can be a supply. Thus is the circle of problems, thank God nursing had enough foresight and professionals on knowing to demand education thus increasing demand and then requiring payment source to increase salaries to meet demands. Whenever we (EMS) quit having excuses on not obtaining a real education and thus not allowing administrators and payers of not having the obligation of paying services and salaries. Compare this with other medical professions such as physical therapist, nursing, etc.. Why is it such a drastic event for those that want to really become a Paramedic to do like any other medical profession and obtain a student loan, work part time, or whatever it takes to go to college? Sorry, don't want to hear excuses.. just like any other profession every body else had to. AAS- EMS ADN-Nursing B.S.- Science and BSN- Nursing pursing - Masters.. R/r 911
VentMedic Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 Actually Medicare does care about education levels and minimum requirements for health care professionals. When it comes to reimbursement to stay in business and keep your profession alive...education. Physical Therapy; Masters - min, Ph.D preferred...big gains in their reimbursement, leading to more opportunities in the past 10 years Occupational Therapy; Bachelors - min. ; another cash cow for health care programs Respiratory Therapy; A.S. min, Bachelors preferred; big battles for reimbursement in the home care and hospital settings. More leverage now that they have established minimum educational standards. The clock is ticking for RTs who need to advance to Registered. Exercise Physiologist; M.S., Ph.D petitioning for licensure (have national certifications) and then they may own Cardiopulmonary rehab reimbursements...big pocket of funds waiting to be tapped. Medics want credibility to work in hospital settings; where's the education and minimum standards for hospitals to bargain with for payment of services provided...not everything should go as "nursing charge". Ambulance companines struggling to stay independent... ALS units want a 2 medic crew... Again, reimbursement from government and insurance for funding... The lobbyists for EMS have to have something to show government agencies that EMS is a profession of professionals that have professional standards worthy of attention. You have to look at a broad picture...the employers need something to work with to keep the money flowing. If they can get more reimbursements from insurance and government funded agencies; wages may go up also. All of the professionals mentioned above made very little 20 yrs ago. Suddenly as they became recognized as money makers by their employers, wages have been steadily increasing. The requirements were set by their national boards...the education had to follow. But, it has to be unity at a national level. There are a lot of community and city colleges with relatively inexpensive tuition costs. R/r 911 is right...no excuses.
chbare Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 Ridryder911 and Ventmedic, +5. Take care, chbare.
Redcell19512 Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 Today I'm working with an EMT who reads and writes on about a 4th grade level. It doesn't end there. He has a limited ability to communicate verbally on a coherent level with patient's and other medical providers. On the surface he almost seems to be mildly retarded (I'm not being mean...I'm stating a fact). When we're on a serious call he has that deer in the headlight look on his face. When we're on a minor medical emergency, he just looks like he's along for the ride. Most of the time he doesn't have a clear understanding of what's going on with the patient. How did a person like this get hired as a part time EMT? Well, started out here as a volunteer 15 years ago. Somehow he managed to pass the 120 hour EMT course and passed the recert tests every three years. He's a nice guy so when the company went paid he was given a job. Cause, you know, it wouldn't be fair not to include him and he IS an EMT. Under PA's current recert policy all he has to do is obtain 24 hours of con-ed every three years and his certification will be renewed....forever and ever. So yes. I am in favor of a 2 year minimum degree to work on an ambulance.
spenac Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 Well I got served. :oops: Good catch. I should have used the more professional wording. Yes I should have said to educate rather than train. But the main point is you can not lump everyone into one path. All paths require education to begin as well as to maintain. I do realize that the person with the degree will have better chance to advance, but I also see the sad fact that in rural area it takes volunteers to put on EMS courses as there are no college courses within 200 miles. I have seen many EMT's leave the area to get their Paramedic certification to never return because they can make more income where they're at. If degrees were required many rural areas would not have ambulance services. Now as more quality online course's related to obtaining a degree related to EMS become available this will not be as big a problem. Notice I said quality, even today many colleges and private groups train people to take the test, they do not educate them. I now have opened another can of worms as on other post's many of you feel online education is bad. There are diploma mills online and there are diploma mills that require you to sit in their class room, result is the same you benefit very little and wasted your money. The key is check out the path you chose carefully, and don't fall for the one size fit's all scam.
VentMedic Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 The same for people of all professions, healthcare or not, who live/work in rural areas. People who have a dream/desire to become something must make choices. With more online courses being offered, that would cover the basic gen. ed and some of the science requirements. Next, rural areas can always petition their tax based educational colleges to offer extension classes in the rural areas. This is how many nursing classes are conducted. Or, a larger college may place an instructor at a local small college to offer the needed core courses. Many private colleges will also do this with hopes of having more enrollments for future programs. This gives opportunity to someone who may be qualified to teach but also wants to live in the rural setting. It can give a chance for all to go forward with their ambitions.
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