American EMS - Would you work in Ontario?

[vs-eh?]

I've got to say no. You said in the orginal post that EMT-XYZ in the US would come to Ontario, the only catch is that if you aren't an EMT-P in the US, then your liscense doesn't mean anything. Not to mention my main point, and that's that medics in the US learn advanced skills and a lot of drugs. Granted, the education time is very short, but the scope is there. It would be rediculous for them to give up those advanced skills and drugs just because the amount of time they went to school is about the same as what the PCP went through.

In short, if EMT-XYZ can do skill ABC or give drug DEF, then regardless of how long they spent in school, that should be reflected on reciprocity for me to even consider moving.

Oh silly child....

Silly, silly child...His name is Thunderchild145 right?

1) When you say "your license" does that mean mine or yours. I didn't say any paramedic in Ontario has a license, and most US medics (from what I see on these forms) don't either...

2) Practically all level of EMS, especially the EMT-B level have zero, yes ZERO education compared to their Ontario counterparts.

3) Again, so you think that if people are told that "Nitro helps chest pain" or that "RSI helps people with their airway" that should be so.

4) Ridiculous!? It is reality my friend! This is the reality that basically everyone who has started out in EMS (in Ontario) for the last 5 years faces.

Again skills/scope = education in the grand scheme.

Are people possibly telling me that 1200-1600 hours of education are analogous to 200 hours of training? You aren't serious....

[vs-eh?]

VS-eh, I'd rather have an experienced medic of whatever level with the tools to save my life, if circumstances called for it. I won't care if he/she/it can quote Plato, or explicate a poem, or solve a differential equation, because that skill set would not be relevant to the task at hand. I recently made a differential diagnosis that a NP with a master's degree missed (because she did not do a complete assessment or HOI) She had been a flight nurse at one time. Tons of edumacation. It didn't benefit the patient that day. Tell us how your increased level of education changes your practice. Why are so many degreed people pursuing a job which requires a certification? If memory serves, you've posted similar threads before. It's starting to feel like you are looking at your popsicle, then at mine, and fear that mine tastes better. Come ride with us.

You quote one experience. Just because a person finds a hole in a hypothesis (among a multitude of facts) doesn't equal the hypothesis being wrong.

But tell me what the scenario was and how you made a difference.

I'm sure you could also quote quite a number of times that NP (I don't know what that is) with their masters did correctly right?

Right?

[Thunderchild145]

1) When you say "your license" does that mean mine or yours. I didn't say any paramedic in Ontario has a license, and most US medics (from what I see on these forms) don't either...

Mine, and I do.

2) Practically all level of EMS, especially the EMT-B level have zero, yes ZERO education compared to their Ontario counterparts.

True, which basically means you can perform the skill better, but if you can still perform the skill competantly with less training, is the excess (and I use that word carefully) training of any benefit?

3) Again, so you think that if people are told that "Nitro helps chest pain" or that "RSI helps people with their airway" that should be so.

A horrid generalization, but unfortunatly a fairly accurate one when you take into account that BLS providers here only have ~100-200 hours.

4) Ridiculous!? It is reality my friend! This is the reality that basically everyone who has started out in EMS (in Ontario) for the last 5 years faces.

Yeah, sorry. If you were trying to get people to come to Ontario, this statement probably didn't help much. At least from my perspective. Granted, the pay is better, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to go back to being a BLS provider, and I'm also pretty sure I wouldn't want to go to school to learn for another few years to basically relearn interventions I already know and can legally perform in the US.

EDIT: Also, I think maybe you misunderstood what I said. If you start in EMS in Ontario, then you're used to having to go to school for 3 years to be an ALS provider, but for an ALS provider in the US to go to Ontario and give up most of his/her SoP, would be in my opinion, ridiculous.

Again skills/scope = education in the grand scheme.

See above about being able to perform skills with less education. Once you can do something, I'm not so much convinced that more education vs. practice on the job is really much help.

Are people possibly telling me that 1200-1600 hours of education are analogous to 200 hours of training? You aren't serious....

I can't be serious, because that's not what I'm trying to say at all. I'm trying to say that someone who can perform BLS interventions is a BLS provider, and someone who can perform ALS interventions should be an ALS provider. Since EMT-P is mainly taught ALS interventions above and beyond the previous scope of EMT-B, there is *basically no benefit to being an EMT-P in a BLS role over EMT-B in a BLS role.

*=EMT-P also has lots of other stuff like A&P, pharmacology and such, so it's not fair to say absolutely no benefit, but the skills they perform would be absolutely the same, assuming both were providing BLS interventions only.

Though, since you are trying to get people to pick up and move to Ontario, I'll stop hijacking this thread with my own opinions on the matter and let others for their own opinions. :wink:

So, good luck with that.

[BushyFromOz]

True, which basically means you can perform the skill better, but if you can still perform the skill competantly with less training, is the excess (and I use that word carefully) training of any benefit?

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Buddy, you better lube up and bend over - i have a feeling your about to get nailed to the wall.

[JPINFV]

:roll:

I can't believe I'm doing this.

VS. Dude, why does this remind me of affirmative action threads on my college's student ran forum? The regulars have hashed this out so many times that they've come as close to a consensus as they will, the noobs aren't up to speed enough to say anything remotely intelligent [see below], and it just ends up becoming a farked up thread. Besides, how many of these threads have you made? Honestly, we get it. American EMS education sucks compared to Canadian. Honestly, here's a gold star for ya. In fact, let's make it a whole page of gold stars.

There ya go.

Besides, if Canada is having that many people drop out of their PCP programs, than apparently there's still too many stupid people trying to get in. When you have that many stupids trying, some will get through. Not that American BLS is anything to be proud of.

Now onto this.

Yes, because medicine is all about 'skills.' Knowning when not to do something is never important. Knowing how to adapt to different situations isn't important and EVERY patient presents exactly how they do in the book. No patient ever has a negitive reaction to a drug and cardiac arrests can be managed by box color. [/sarcasm] Would you go to a doctor who has less training and education just because they can still do the same skill? Hell, lab techs can start IVs and push drugs. Let's give them a bunch of colors and all and put them on an ambulance. After all, medicine is only about skills.

Hmm, so it's a horrid, yet accurate description, yet above you argued that the only thing that mattered was 'skillz, not edumacation, and we don need no mo of tat.'

Waffles!

Yeah, sorry. If you were trying to get people to come to Ontario, this statement probably didn't help much. At least from my perspective. Granted, the pay is better, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to go back to being a BLS provider, and I'm also pretty sure I wouldn't want to go to school to learn for another few years to basically relearn interventions I already know and can legally perform in the US.

EDIT: Also, I think maybe you misunderstood what I said. If you start in EMS in Ontario, then you're used to having to go to school for 3 years to be an ALS provider, but for an ALS provider in the US to go to Ontario and give up most of his/her SoP, would be in my opinion, ridiculous.

Why not? How would you like to have more of that 'edumacation junk' than someone else but see a foreigner doing more. Would you accept a foreign doctor that didn't pass the USMLE and wasn't educated to our standards because, well, he could be a doctor in his home country? Would you accept that for your family? Are paramedic's doctors? No, but they are a type of physician extender [like PAs and NPs, except with out the education and scope] and need to be able to act at least somewhat like a doctor.

Again skills/scope = education in the grand scheme.

See above about being able to perform skills with less education. Once you can do something, I'm not so much convinced that more education vs. practice on the job is really much help.

[WendyT]

This is just my opinion even the most qualified BSer out there maybe out of turn based upon what it is they know that puts you inline, regardless of the 200 plus hours means that some company out there regardless of what it is you can do, if they are desperate enough will still put you out there with less skills than the common 1200.

Ok we will just change somethings on your resume, whose gonna know?

I heard a supervisor talking to another medic at the hospital here in Calgary, they were going to start taking emt's again, even if they didnt further their education (medic), because that's how desperate they were for anything.

If we are desperate and you've only had 200+ hours, that's scary and if that's the best you can do, then we are seriously in jeopardy.

[Dustdevil]

No.

I don't like the cold.

I don't like working for the government (yes, I know it is ironic).

I don't like high taxes.

I don't like socialised medicine.

I don't like gay blue uniforms or reflective stripes.

I don't like large, cumbersome systems and the bureaucracy that comes with them (centralised testing).

Other than that, Ontario sounds great!

[Acosell]

I don't like gay blue uniforms or reflective stripes.

:shock:

Are you kidding? Reflective stripes are awesome!

[Thunderchild145]

In short what I'm trying to say is that if I'm an ALS provider here, I can't really think of a good reason to move there and be a BLS provider. Money's nice, but I make enough to live comfortably here so that's not really an issue.

In the end, I'm only making decisions for myself. "Y'all" can choose to do whatever you want. I only know this offer isn't right for me.

Have a good one.

[Dustdevil]

In short what I'm trying to say is that if I'm an ALS provider here, I can't really think of a good reason to move there and be a BLS provider. Money's nice, but I make enough to live comfortably here so that's not really an issue.

Do you ever intend to upgrade your education, or are you through with all that book learnin?