Texas at it again

[Asysin2leads]

Mostly from straw buys in North Carolina, et al. Per capita, gun violence in New York is extremely low, probably the one of the lowest in any major city. Yeah, of course, shootings do happen, and yeah, you can't use it as a model for other parts of the country because few places can sustain the police presence.

The United States does have a problem with guns, and as Dwayne pointed out, putting the genie back in the bottle is next to impossible. However, to bring this discussion back to where it started, I don't think giving people more excuses to shoot each other is good idea, which is what I was coming out against in the first place. Somehow we got on the topic of concealed weapons, which is a whole other ball of wax.

Anyway, at the end of the day, this is my stance on guns. I don't think they're sexy. I think they're a tool, but they are not a means of self defense, they are means of applying deadly force. Thats why I'm against using guns as a deterrent, because guns aren't meant to be a deterrent, and their use as a deterrent is so abysmal that police departments don't even teach it anymore.

We're never going to get guns completely out of American culture. Its not going to happen. However, if we do foster a better understanding of their uses and effects, maybe we'll be better off.

[Lone Star]

In the case of the Columbine shooting, it seems that ALL of the weapons involved were purchased legally, but with the sole intent of being provided (illegally) to the perpetrators. I believe the purchaser went to prison for that.

In the West Paducah, Kentucky school shooting (prior to Columbine), ALL of the guns used were stolen- including shotguns that were taken from a locked case.

And the point is, although it IS a minor side-note, that guns and children don't mix. Here's all of the cases of school shootings by high school students at schools high school and below on wikipedia.

• : Gun taken from home of foster mother.

[*]Frontier Junior High: Don't know.

[*]Heath High School: Guns taken from parents as well as friend's father's garage.

[*]Parker Middle School: Gun taken from father.

[*]Pine Middle School: Gun taken from parent's house, bullets gift from father.

[*]Red Lake High School: 2 Guns from grandfather, 1 gun from unknown source.

[*]Red Lion Area Junior High School: Guns taken from stepfather's gun locker.

[*]Richland High School: Don't know

[*]Rocori High School: Don't know

[*]Santana High School: Guns taken from father's gun cabinet.

[*]Theo J. Buell Elementary School: Guns taken from uncle's house.

[*]Thurston High School: I'm having trouble piecing together all of the info, but he had many guns in his life including rifles from his father and a gun stolen from a friend's father by that friend.

[*]Westside Middle School: Guns taken from grandfather's house.

[*]Weston High School: Guns taken from parents.

And of course, Columbine. This is the only one, as far as I can see, where the guns were purchased illegally, through a straw purchaser.

There is a ray of hope though, in a couple instances guns were used to stop school shootings.

• : Principal subdues shooter with gun.

[*]Appalachian School of Law: Two former police officers subdued the shooter with gun. However, this wasn't high school or below.

In summary, if you're going to have children and guns at the same time, you'd better make sure the guns are secured like a nuclear silo. And I don't mean the Russian ones.

For the record, the Theo J. Buel shooting of Kayla Roland (which happened within a half mile of my house), the gun that was used was owned by a CONVICTED FELON who had the gun stashed under a pile of dirty clothes in the house that he was living in with the child and mother. (The gun had been reported as stolen)

The boy was shown by the uncle, how to load and charge the weapon.

See, in my experience, usually the ones who are so for guns are the ones from the gated communities in the suburbs, and the ones in the boonies where the worst crime was someone parking on the grass, people who get the majority of their information about crime and violence from what they see on TV. These are the ones who believe in 'predators', which Dateline is always seemingly trying to catch, and the CSI devotees who wannabe like David Caruso and let the criminal know who's boss. So you can take the tough guy "you don't get it, man" approach to this, but the truth is, I have a lot of experience with crime, gun violence, and the like, and its from that that I draw my opinions. Seeing a six year old die because someone decided to have too many drinks at a birthday party is why I have such a dim outlook on firearms, why I see them for what they are, a means to kill, nothing more, and nothing less.

I'm glad that you qualified that statement with the word 'usually', because where I live, there are no 'gated communities', nor are we 'in the boonies where the worst crime was someone parking on the grass'.

The majority of my 'information' does not come from the evening news, but from seeing it each day, and hearing reports from the local police department, how people are getting shot in the face for a pair of expensive shoes, coats and the like.

Yes, I've looked down the 'business end' of a gun in someone else's hand....and it's not a very good feeling! I've been mugged at knife point, and I've personally known people who have been pulled out of their cars by punk hoodlums who are emulating the 'Crips' and the 'Bloods' because they've seen it on television, and think its 'cool' to be in a gang.

I'm not some member of the 'Minute Man Militia' or any other 'anti-government' group. I'm just an average citizen who is tired of being a victim, while the overworked law enforcement agency is too busy dealing with other incidents to just have an officer stand by in case I need them.

Most people that live in the more affluent areas of Flint, MI lock their doors as they enter the area I live in, or they go miles out of their way to avoid the area entirely.

While I've tried to discuss this rationally, intelligently, and simply state MY views on the subject; you, sir, have resorted to personal attacks and insults.

As I've stated before, I don't care what your views are, I don't care whether you like the idea of my ability to LEGALLY carry a concealed pistol or not. The views I espouse are my own, and I really don't care if you like them or not either. The ONLY reason I even waded into this 'hot topic' issue, is to share my views with those that can actually discuss them logically and intelligently.

I've said it before, and I feel I must reiterate: I'm not out to change anyone's viewpoint on the issue of concealed carry, gun ownership, hunting, or taking the opportunity to climb up on a soap box to regurgitate the propaganda releaseed by the NRA or any other pro-gun group. I do NOT support "vigilantism" in any manner, shape or form!

I've shown your viewpoints the respect that they deserve, because they are YOUR views. I've done so without resulting to the childish act of ridiculing them, skewing them into something unrelated to your views, nor used them as ammunition to ridicule you personally.

However, to bring this discussion back to where it started, I don't think giving people more excuses to shoot each other is good idea, which is what I was coming out against in the first place. Somehow we got on the topic of concealed weapons, which is a whole other ball of wax.

This entire post was spawned by a knee-jerk reaction to the State of Texas enacting their 'Castle Doctrine Laws' and enabling people who can LEGALLY carry a concealed weapon to keep said LEGAL weapon LOCKED in their vehicles at work, which (if you'll note) apply DIRECTLY to concealed carry!

[chbare]

Regardless of your stance, Asysin2leads brings up some good points. Having a gun will not automatically make you safer or suddenly prevent you from being a victim of a violent crime. Look at how many police officers are shot with their own gun, and they are the ones who actually receive firearms training. I have not changed my stance, however, I agree that people should receive training and have a safe and realistic mindset regarding weapons. I think the current 2 day shake and bake CCW courses are inadequate for preparing people to face the reality of carrying a gun. I have never used lethal force, so I suppose some of this is nothing more than opinion.

Take care,

chbare.

[CBEMT]

And of course, Columbine. This is the only one, as far as I can see, where the guns were purchased illegally, through a straw purchaser.

Half right half wrong. The PURCHASE was perfectly legal. The act of purchaser handing the weapons to Harris and Kliebold was illegal.

So what you have there are a list of illegal uses of legal weapons, which is what makes the perpetrators criminals in the first place- THEY DON'T OBEY THE LAW in either obtaining guns OR using them!

But in A2L's world, gun laws aren't broken by people who break laws.

All he wants to do is make more laws for criminals to break and be duly charged with- not one thing he's suggested will stop a crime or save someone's life.

I think they're a tool, but they are not a means of self defense, they are means of applying deadly force.

So cops have them.... why? To carry out executions in the street? I mean, you said it yourself- guns are for killing and nothing more.

[Eric]

As a member of the NRA i can tell you about 30 states have this law on there books FL was the frist to have the law and the frist for the right to wear you'er gun under you'er shirt or just about any where you would like still in some states you must run away when some one is in you'er home or car/truck that would mean if some one had a gun come in to you'er home with the intent to rape you'er wife or little girl you'er hands were tied as far as useing a gun or knife now you can use force with force and those of you yelling/saying there will be blood in the streets or we were going back to the cowboy days so far in the past 14 years this kind's of law have been in place thsi has not happend in fact if you look at DC or any other state that does not have the carry laws you will see there crime rate is higher then those with the laws DC and CA have the hardest laws omost baning guns and you well see there crime is 2 3 times higher rate then the others with less baning

[CBEMT]

I'm not sure if I'm on your side or not, because I'm not 100% sure that any of that post was actually English.

[JPINFV]

And the point is, although it IS a minor side-note, that guns and children don't mix.

I'd argue this one. Unsupervised children and guns do not mix well now. How many children learn to shoot each year either through parents or at scout camp? You can't honestly say that a child that knows how to shoot is an automatic danger to society. I learnt to shoot shot guns and rifles in middle school and my father remembers back when kids would take their guns to school to go hunting after school [this was about 35 years ago in Delaware to set a time and location]. Besides, guns at school shootings are a side problem at best. The real problem is why are we allowing children to get away with actions that would not be tolerated in society [harassment]?

[JPINFV]

As a member of the NRA i can tell you about 30 states have this law on there books FL was the frist to have the law and the frist for the right to wear you'er gun under you'er shirt or just about any where you would like still in some states you must run away when some one is in you'er home or car/truck that would mean if some one had a gun come in to you'er home with the intent to rape you'er wife or little girl you'er hands were tied as far as useing a gun or knife now you can use force with force and those of you yelling/saying there will be blood in the streets or we were going back to the cowboy days so far in the past 14 years this kind's of law have been in place thsi has not happend in fact if you look at DC or any other state that does not have the carry laws you will see there crime rate is higher then those with the laws DC and CA have the hardest laws omost baning guns and you well see there crime is 2 3 times higher rate then the others with less baning

Periods are your friend.

[nbsp]

[Asysin2leads]

As a member of the NRA i can tell you about 30 states have this law on there books FL was the frist to have the law and the frist for the right to wear you'er gun under you'er shirt or just about any where you would like still in some states you must run away when some one is in you'er home or car/truck that would mean if some one had a gun come in to you'er home with the intent to rape you'er wife or little girl you'er hands were tied as far as useing a gun or knife now you can use force with force and those of you yelling/saying there will be blood in the streets or we were going back to the cowboy days so far in the past 14 years this kind's of law have been in place thsi has not happend in fact if you look at DC or any other state that does not have the carry laws you will see there crime rate is higher then those with the laws DC and CA have the hardest laws omost baning guns and you well see there crime is 2 3 times higher rate then the others with less baning

The NRA, fighting hard to keep guys like this armed to the teeth. Thanks a lot, fellas!