Volunteerism in Rural EMS

[AZCEP]

Good lord man, that's Dean Martin.

Such a sad, sad, state of affairs when people forget the "Rat Pack" :roll:

[Rescue0ne]

I should have picked up on the "dean of emt city", huh?

Guess I really missed on that call.

[Dustdevil]

I should have picked up on the "dean of emt city", huh?

Guess I really missed on that call.

Yes, so far we have the "Dean" (Dean Martin) the "Duke" (John "The Duke" Wayne), and the "Princess" (Princess Leia) of EMT City. I am surprised that nobody has adopted these other titles:

• King of EMT City (Don King, Rodney King, or Elvis photo avatar)

Queen of EMT City (Queen Elizabeth, Freddy Mercury, or Liberace' photo avatar)

Prince of EMT City (Prince or Will Smith, or any royal prince photo avatar)

Don of EMT City (Don Ameche, Don Knotts, or Don Corleone photo avatar)

Dick of EMT City (Dick Van Dyke or Dick Van Patten photo avatar)

Captain of EMT City (Captain Kirk photo avatar)

Sargeant of EMT City (Dick Sargent photo avatar)

Sheikh of EMT City (anybody with a schmagh [checkered Arabic headscarf] photo avatar)

Shah Of EMT CIty (Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi of Iran [RIP] photo avatar)

Ayatollah of EMT City (Ruhollah Khomeini photo avatar)

• Anyhow, back to the topic at hand... those who keep trotting out the tired old argument of how individual volunteer providers can be just as good as individual paid providers are -- and I suspect intentionally so -- missing the point. This is not about individual providers. This is about THE PROFESSION! The fact is that the state of the profession itself is our prime concern here. If the profession fails to progress, so does care at the lowest level. And so long as the profession is viewed as nothing more than a hobby that is not worthy of your full-time devotion, then the profession will indeed continue to fail to progress. It simply does not matter that you, as a volunteer, are personally devote yourself fully to your education and personal professionalism. If you are giving your services away for free, further cheapening our services and our image, you may be helping your individual patients, one at a time, but you are hurting the profession as a whole. That harm affects those who are working full time to make this a respected profession (which benefits YOU TOO!), as well as hurting the citizens who deserve better a better service.

Spin it any way you like. But once you pull away the blinders and look at the big picture, not just your current patient, there is no way that an intelligent person cannot see that volunteerism is seriously detrimental to EMS. Period.

[brentoli]

Dust, I can see your point, and might I suggest the Van Dyke avatar for yourself? :twisted: Only playing of course.

Imagine if every profession had vollys in it. Could you imagine the unpaid retail sales associate? The unpaid cook at Applebees. Or the unpaid road paver dude... (not the ones from the state prison).

You have a completely valid point. But the system is flawed, and with out central guidance, it is irreparable.

Where will the central guidance come from?

Should EMS everywhere be private? Should it all be public and do away with private companies?

A national EMS oversight board? Or leave it up to individual states?

I am not trying to the pessimist here, but....

If you came to me today and said my fire department would be staffed 4 people a day, 24/7 full time with supplemental on call personal. I would be all for it. I would be the first one in there with my application.

Dust.. there is a bigger point here, where is the funding to come from to make all serviced paid? And if these organizations stay the same and start paying, the money has to come from somewhere else. Tell me how these po'dunk services that will be paying $20k a year will help anyone elses salary? And when the little training and equipment money they already have goes towards personnel instead, what will that show 5 years from now?

Like I said, don't get me wrong, I am not "PROUD TO BE VOLUNTEER" I am proud of what I do, yes, I am proud of my department, yes. My point here is everything cost money, and that money doesn't magically appear. It is going to take a much bigger force then we have right now to change the state of things. Hopefully in our lifetimes at least the ball will get some more momentum behind it.

[AZCEP]

Dust.. there is a bigger point here, where is the funding to come from to make all serviced paid? And if these organizations stay the same and start paying, the money has to come from somewhere else. Tell me how these po'dunk services that will be paying $20k a year will help anyone elses salary? And when the little training and equipment money they already have goes towards personnel instead, what will that show 5 years from now?

Sorry, but I have to get in here.

There is a definite possibility that the individual service would not be able to survive. Just as likely, this would become a regional issue. So instead of eliminating service to the entire region, combine services. Regionalize the providers so that the call volume would increase enough to support the newly formed agencies. Just one idea that has met with some success already.

For a period, there may need to be a reduction in service. Until the bugs in the system are worked out, but in the end it would be vastly improved over the current state of affairs. Even if it means maintaining a number of volunteers on call to serve a more remote area until others can arrive. Reducing response times would be one of several benefits, eventually.

As broke as the system currently is, moving to change the way things are done should not be viewed as a bad thing. Ideas abound as to how to best alter the status quo. The problem with implementation lies with a lack of vision, or fear of change from providers that don't see the need.

[brentoli]

ADDENDUM TO MY ABOVE POST:

I am not against abolishing the unpaid EMS. I am just making sure both sides of the issue are represented. You bet your hairy rump if I could get paid $35,000 a year doing this opposed to the $2000 right now I would do it in a heartbeat.

[Dustdevil]

Until you can look at the roster of ALL city and county employees and expenses and not see somebody or something that is less critical to the citizens, you have no cause to wonder where the money will come from.

Ever notice that the janitors, lawn mowers, mechanics, phone answerers, city/county clerks and secretaries, road pavers, attorneys, judges, engineers, and water department are all paid? Ever wonder why those personnel are considered worth more than us? Ever seen people rushing to volunteer for any of those jobs? Bingo! If the positions cannot be filled for free, the government WILL find a way to fund it. It is a proven historical fact. Failure to recognise that simple reality is a serious intellectual deficiency for a medical professional.

[medic001918]

Sorry, but I have to get in here.

There is a definite possibility that the individual service would not be able to survive. Just as likely, this would become a regional issue. So instead of eliminating service to the entire region, combine services. Regionalize the providers so that the call volume would increase enough to support the newly formed agencies. Just one idea that has met with some success already.

For a period, there may need to be a reduction in service. Until the bugs in the system are worked out, but in the end it would be vastly improved over the current state of affairs. Even if it means maintaining a number of volunteers on call to serve a more remote area until others can arrive. Reducing response times would be one of several benefits, eventually.

As broke as the system currently is, moving to change the way things are done should not be viewed as a bad thing. Ideas abound as to how to best alter the status quo. The problem with implementation lies with a lack of vision, or fear of change from providers that don't see the need.

AZCEP beat me to it. The way the smaller services have their financial needs met is to combine services with other small towns so that they don't have to absorb the entire cost on their own. Make it a county or regional service. The biggest problem with EMS demanding better wages is education and the fact that there are plenty of people willing to do it as a hobby and give their services away for free.

An EMT in my area makes $14-15 hour and can pretty much work as much as they want. That's not bad money considering that it's a few short weeks of time spent in a glorified first aid class. Doesn't sound like bad wages when you consider the amount of time that was needed to be invested to be able to do the job.

The majority of services in my area are volunteer as well. In fact, there's more volunteers in my area then there are paid providers. How can you demand better wages for your services when someone is willing to take your job and do the same work for free? If you're in charge of the budget, it's a no-brainer how to handle that situation. But if people stop giving their services away, the people in charge then have to fund the service appropriately. As other's have mentioned, there are plenty of other positions that they find funding for...teachers, public works, police, janitorial, etc.

This is a topic that has been beaten to death. But there is a means for them to handle the problem and make the system work. While it would cause some "growing pains" again, the end result has the potential to be more than worth it for those that are trying to make a career of EMS.

Shane

NREMT-P

[brentoli]

This is your problem Dust...

HOW DO WE STOP FILLING THEM FOR FREE?

Pulling from thin air, I am sure upwards of 50% of the volunteer force would be willing to go though the extra training and such to become a paid EMS or Fire force. Manpower isn't the issue.

The issue is changing 200 years of history. Since the beginning of America, the fire service has been volunteer. Since the beginning of EMS in the 70's, there has been volunteers.

How do we turn it around? We can sit here and debate the dynamics and the economics all we want to. But that doesn't come up with a solution. The means to the end is what we are striving for, but we are stuck on the end to the means.

I don't disagree with this. I would much rather see EMS as a more professional orginazation, instead of "Larrys Meat Wagon" the next town over. But we need to work together to get to our goal.

We all know current orginizations, and the like would not be able to survive in their current form. But can we allow a denial of service to citizens because we don't want anyone out their if they are not being paid? There is no magic wand solution. I am not going to wake up at 1:30 this afternoon (I'm on midnight shift) and see paid EMS from coast to coast.

Where do we start? How do we get EMS into the profession it needs to be?

I don't have the answer, Dust doesn't have the answer, I bet Rid doesn't even have the answer to this one. I think if we all come together as a collective whole the answer could be found though.

[Dustdevil]

I don't have the answer, Dust doesn't have the answer, I bet Rid doesn't even have the answer to this one. I think if we all come together as a collective whole the answer could be found though.

Au contraire, mon frere!

Both Rid and I have repeatedly presented the answer here in this forum, sometimes several times a day. Allow me to repeat it here for the newcomers:

[align=center:d2425b8a62]THERE IS NO PROBLEM IN EMS THAT CANNOT BE SOLVED THROUGH EDUCATION![/align:d2425b8a62]

Just like the city engineers and the county attorneys, if the education costs you enough time and money and effort to achieve, you will not be giving it away for free. And if becoming a medic in this country meant a serious educational commit, it would no longer be an attractive hobby for losers. Result? Problem solved. Immediately.

Yes, the answer is painfully clear and simple. It's just that way too many people either are too selfish to hear it, or too stupid to understand it. Not referring to anybody specifically here, of course.