Homosexuality - Why do people still care?

[DwayneEMTP]

Captain, I'd like to direct a couple of questions to you..for three reasons...

One: You've proven yourself to be intelligent, and an asset to the City.

Two: You have an avatar from one of the top couple of westerns ever made.

Three: We're old enough to remember group showers...not Dustdevil old, thank goodness, but old enough.

If gays, as a rule, chose to be gay, shouldn't there have been a time when we chose to be straight? I mean, was there a time after gym when you were younger, when showering with all the other boys, that you thought " WOW! Look at all those yummy penises! I'd sure like to have a go at one of them! But hell...I should probably go for a vagina instead...it just seems right."

Did you hit a point where said "ok...boobs...penis...boobs...penis...How will I ever decide?!"

And if you didn't have to decide, why do you believe others did?

Second: If it was proven to you tomorrow, to your satisfaction, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that gays were born gay, would it change your feeling on this issue?

No one has ever answered these questions...Though I'd love for them too...I don't know the right answers, only those that are right for me. But I am interested in your thoughts.

Thanks for your contributions to the City, and I hope you'll take this post in the spirit intended, that of truly understanding another's point of view.

Have a great day!

Dwayne

[brock8024]

I have never advocated harming someone because they are homosexual. The problem I have with the "organized homosexual movement" is in the whiny, perpetually offended give me my rights or else approach they assume. Even to the extreme of exposing children to disgusting behavior in public. One even said a few days ago that "gay is the new black" I suppose he is trying to attach their chosen lifestyle to the roughly 221 years of african slavery on this continent. (And no I don't think they deserve one dime in reparations) Anyway this is an example of just how desperate these folks are to validate their lifestyle. I submit that it is disrespectful to equate a lifestyle CHOICE to the legacy of those that suffered the horrors of slavery as well as during the civil rights movement. Please dont try to associate yourself with the incredibly honorable folks that scaramedic listed.

Now with all of this said please understand I have very good friends that are homosexual and we often have spirited debate about these subjects, but at the end of the day we are still friends respectful of each other as a person. I offer you that same respect sir.

I have a few problems with this.

First you said "Even to the extreme of exposing children to disgusting behavior in public."

So what you are saying is that when heterosexuals are kissing and groping and wearing sexual clothes in public this is not exposing children to disgusting behavior in public. I am sorry but I have seen many heterosexuals saying and doing some nasty things in front of kids. Where I live the worst I have seen so far is maybe two guys kiss or hold hands in public. And what about all these teenage girls who wear clothes way to reveling for their age. Like I said I do not understand this comment because it is two fold. yes sometimes gays can do extreme things to get attention in public but heterosexuals do the same thing.

"Please don't try to associate yourself with the incredibly honorable folks that scaramedic listed. "

So what you are saying is that their lives are more important than the gays that are torchored and beat to death? That is the way it sounded to me. I may be wrong and if I am please explain.

again please excuse my spelling.

[captainstandup]

This isn't a spelling bee, its a spirited discussion between folks with varying opinions on an often emotional subject. What I am saying is the homosexual community shouldn't attempt to gain assumed credibility by hijacking the legacy of african slavery in america, the civil rights movement, world war II or those already dead in what is shaping up to be world war III against psycho muslims.

It's quite a stretch to attempt to equate your "struggle" with the above for the following reasons: I, and arguably the majority of people on earth, view homosexual behavior to be based on deviant sexual behavior with no biological or procreative purpose. Now I realize you will respond by saying that most heterosexual sex is non-procreative. To this I would reply that the basis for sex, at least from a biological perspective, is pro creative and for perpetuation of the species. Homosexual sex lacks this basis.

Is there any other species on the planet that engages in homosexual sex? Cattle, squirrels, rabbits, fish, birds. The only animal I am aware of, other than humans, that engage in an act of homosexual sex is the manatee and this is apparently by happenstance instead of an overt sexual act.

As I see it the biggest hurdle you have is political correctness. On the surface it appears to be your ally in the workplace and society at large. The "word police" feverishly seek out those expressing views even remotely opposed to homosexuals. People of faith christians and others who oppose total acceptance of homosexual behavior are censored, fired, and ridiculed in the main stream media as backward or ignorant. The problem with this is that for all of their hell raising and political activism they simply galvanize others against them.

Politically homosexuals are seen as a huge nuisance that must be handled carefully due to their influence in hollywood and as I mentioned above the main stream media. I'm sure this isn't how you wish to be perceived. In order to gain credibility it will take time, spirited discussion, understanding of BOTH SIDES not just yours or mine and finally a more peaceful approach by the homosexual community as opposed to the semi-terrorist posture that exists now.

[akflightmedic]

Is there any other species on the planet that engages in homosexual sex? Cattle, squirrels, rabbits, fish, birds. The only animal I am aware of, other than humans, that engage in an act of homosexual sex is the manatee and this is apparently by happenstance instead of an overt sexual act.

Is National Geographic an unbiased source?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20..._gayanimal.html

Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate

James Owen in London

for National Geographic News

July 23, 2004

Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it. So go the lyrics penned by U.S. songwriter Cole Porter.

Porter, who first hit it big in the 1920s, wouldn't risk parading his homosexuality in public. In his day "the birds and the bees" generally meant only one thing—sex between a male and female.

But, actually, some same-sex birds do do it. So do beetles, sheep, fruit bats, dolphins, and orangutans. Zoologists are discovering that homosexual and bisexual activity is not unknown within the animal kingdom.

Roy and Silo, two male chinstrap penguins at New York's Central Park Zoo have been inseparable for six years now. They display classic pair-bonding behavior—entwining of necks, mutual preening, flipper flapping, and the rest. They also have sex, while ignoring potential female mates.

Wild birds exhibit similar behavior. There are male ostriches that only court their own gender, and pairs of male flamingos that mate, build nests, and even raise foster chicks.

Filmmakers recently went in search of homosexual wild animals as part of a National Geographic Ultimate Explorer documentary about the female's role in the mating game. (The film, Girl Power, will be screened in the U.S this Saturday at 8 p.m. ET, 5 p.m PT on MSNBC TV.)

The team caught female Japanese macaques engaged in intimate acts which, if observed in humans, would be in the X-rated category.

"The homosexual behavior that goes on is completely baffling and intriguing," says National Geographic Ultimate Explorer correspondent, Mireya Mayor. "You would have thought females that want to be mated, especially over their fertile period, would be seeking out males."

Well, perhaps, in a roundabout way, they are seeking males, suggests primatologist Amy Parish.

She argues that female macaques may enhance their social position through homosexual intimacy which in turn influences breeding success. Parish says, "Taking something that's nonreproductive, like mounting another female—if it leads to control of a resource or acquisition of a resource or a good alliance partner, that could directly impact your reproductive success."

Sexual Gratification

On the other hand, they could just be enjoying themselves, suggests Paul Vasey, animal behavior professor at the University of Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada. "They're engaging in the behavior because it's gratifying sexually or it's sexually pleasurable," he says. "They just like it. It doesn't have any sort of adaptive payoff."

Matthew Grober, biology professor at Georgia State University, agrees, saying, "If [sex] wasn't fun, we wouldn't have any kids around. So I think that maybe Japanese macaques have taken the fun aspect of sex and really run with it."

The bonobo, an African ape closely related to humans, has an even bigger sexual appetite. Studies suggest 75 percent of bonobo sex is nonreproductive and that nearly all bonobos are bisexual. Frans de Waal, author of Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape, calls the species a "make love, not war" primate. He believes bonobos use sex to resolve conflicts between individuals.

Other animals appear to go through a homosexual phase before they become fully mature. For instance, male dolphin calves often form temporary sexual partnerships, which scientists believe help to establish lifelong bonds. Such sexual behavior has been documented only relatively recently. Zoologists have been accused of skirting round the subject for fear of stepping into a political minefield.

"There was a lot of hiding of what was going on, I think, because people were maybe afraid that they would get into trouble by talking about it," notes de Waal. Whether it's a good idea or not, it's hard not make comparisons between humans and other animals, especially primates. The fact that homosexuality does, after all, exist in the natural world is bound to be used against people who insist such behavior is unnatural.

In the U.S., in particular, the moral debate over this issue rages on. Many on the religious right regard homosexuality as a sin. And only this month, President Bush vowed to continue his bid to ban gay marriages after the Senate blocked the proposal.

Already, cases of animal homosexuality have been cited in successful court cases brought against states like Texas, where gay sex was, until recently, illegal.

Yet scientists say we should be wary of referring to animals when considering what's acceptable in human society. For instance, infanticide, as practiced by lions and many other animals, isn't something people, gay or straight, generally approve of in humans.

Human Homosexuality

So how far can we go in using animals to help us understand human homosexuality? Robin Dunbar is a professor of evolutionary psychology at the University of Liverpool, England. "The bottom line is that anything that happens in other primates, and particularly other apes, is likely to have strong evolutionary continuity with what happens in humans," he said.

Dunbar says the bonobo's use of homosexual activity for social bonding is a possible example, adding, "One of the main arguments for human homosexual behavior is that it helps bond male groups together, particularly where a group of individuals are dependent on each other, as they might be in hunting or warfare."

For instance, the Spartans, in ancient Greece, encouraged homosexuality among their elite troops. "They had the not unreasonable belief that individuals would stick by and make all efforts to rescue other individuals if they had a lover relationship," Dunbar added.

Another suggestion is that homosexuality is a developmental phase people go through. He said, "This is similar to the argument of play in young animals to get their brain and muscles to work effectively and together. Off the back of this, there's the possibility you can get individuals locked into this phase for the rest of their lives as a result of the social environment they grow up in."

But he adds that homosexuality doesn't necessarily have to have a function. It could be a spin-off or by-product of something else and in itself carries no evolutionary weight."

He cites sexual gratification, which encourages procreation, as an example. "An organism is designed to maximize its motivational systems," he adds.

In other words, if the urge to have sex is strong enough it may spill over into nonreproductive sex, as suggested by the actions of the bonobos and macaques. However, as Dunbar admits, there's a long way to go before the causes of homosexuality in humans are fully understood.

He said, "Nobody's really investigated this issue thoroughly, because it's so politically sensitive. It's fair to say all possibilities are still open."

[akflightmedic]

I, and arguably the majority of people on earth, view homosexual behavior to be based on deviant sexual behavior with no biological or procreative purpose. Now I realize you will respond by saying that most heterosexual sex is non-procreative. To this I would reply that the basis for sex, at least from a biological perspective, is pro creative and for perpetuation of the species. Homosexual sex lacks this basis.

[chbare]

I do not care. Your business is your business. I would ask that people keep private matters private. This goes for all people of sexual orientation. I do not want to see homosexual couples acting inappropriately any more than heterosexual couples.

As far as the whole "movement" issue. I see this like any other group of people. You have zealots on every side of the issue, with most of the people landing somewhere in the middle. However, only the loud zealots seem to make the news.

As far as religion. I am a religious person and my beliefs are not a secret. However, I hope most people would agree that we treat people how we want to be treated and apply that respect to people who may not share our religious beliefs. We can agree to disagree and still treat each other with respect. This is very much part of what I believe. However, much of the religion thing comes down to how individuals choose to interpret religious concepts.

Take care,

chbare.

[brentoli]

Brentoli, I think you meant "commendation," not "condemnation", unless you are unhappy with us staying on topic for 9 pages.

Eh. Spell check can't fix stupid.

[captainstandup]

FINALLY! Someone that can discuss this subject scientifically. Although I am a bit suspicious of research that set out to prove a particular result as opposed to openly examining the issue. By the way I too had anthropology and psychological anthropology in college. I was hoping to provoke this kind of discussion by my earlier threads on this subject.

We keep getting the same emotional psychobabble about folks being born with homosexuality in their genetic structure. I would really like to hear your perspective on this, so is it choice or a "genetic destiny"?

[chbare]

This answer may in fact be in the question. Does it matter? Not trying to be argumentative, but does it really matter? :dontknow:

Take care,

chbare.

[DwayneEMTP]

We keep getting the same emotional psychobabble about folks being born with homosexuality in their genetic structure. I would really like to hear your perspective on this, so is it choice or a "genetic destiny"?

See, I knew you wouldn't answer my previous questions...they seem like such obvious questions to me, but no one ever answers them when involved in this debate.

I'm afraid I can't offer scientific evidence in response to your question, only anecdotal, so you'll have to take it for what it's worth based on your impression of my honesty and ability to accurately report it.

As an animal trainer for more than 20 years, I can tell you that I have seen what appears to be homosexual behavior in nearly all species I've been around. Mostly my experience has involved cows, horses, and dogs, but I've had contact with several dozen different species as a trainer.

I say 'appears' as I'm not sure exactly how to define homosexual behavior, where it begins and where it ends. But speak with any professional involved with the animal husbandry program in high dollar livestock and they'll tell you (again, at least I've never spoken to one that hasn't) that dealing with sires that will only mount same sex animals is an issue. And in “most” cases, it is not simply sexual behavior, their pack and/or herd mentality 'seems' to be slanted that way as well.

Same issue if you're dealing with horses, cows, dogs, pigs...you get my point I'm sure. Did these animals choose to only desire same sex partners, or was it hardwired into them? If you say they chose, you will be at odds with the vast majority of main stream behaviorists in believing that animals possess this type of abstract thought. I'm not claiming this as proof of course, simply evidence to be considered while pondering the issue.

Also, training Arabian horses brings one into contact with many, many gays and lesbians, in fact, in the Arabian horse world I may have been the only straight trainer I knew of. Over the course of my career I've simply asked this question...of perhaps 30 people in the last 20 years and without exception the individuals asked did not believe that they had made an orientation choice. Many, if not most (I'm not pretending to remember each conversation) knew of lost souls that would spend time pretending to be gay, but claimed that they seldom stayed with the lifestyle as they were looking for something that couldn't be found by this means. And these are not the 'parade' gays. These were discrete professionals.

Of course, most that I've met that believe that homosexual sex was “aberrant and sinful” seem to also believe that you can't possibly take a gay's word for how they feel or why they do what they do.

Anyway, take it for what it's worth. I don't have a dog in the 'gay fight', I just like the argument. I was blessed to be born heterosexual, my lifestyle is accepted and easy...no one wants to beat me up, deny me work or housing, they don't believe I have a tendency to molest children, when I kiss my mate or hold her hand, no one (or at least most I'm hoping) don't find that disgusting, or jump to any other ignorant conclusions about what my sexuality says about my character.

One more time, just so I can say I did...Did you choose to be heterosexual? And if you were convinced that being gay was hard wired, would it change your feelings about these issues?

Have a great day Captain.

Dwayne