Does BLS call for ALS intercept when not needed....

[SSG G-man]

Well, There is one point I want to make. IT is that just because someone is a volunteer does not mean they see less calls that a paid person. Our countys career staff (we have a crew in our volunteer station) each individual is scheduled 9 days a month. On average from talking to them they run about 15 calls per month. There are months, since I volunteer and can be there as much as I want, I run 30-45 calls. So who sees more calls? So paid vs Volunteer does not mean more experience. Also, do not forget a lot of volunteers are also paid to do it some where else!!

I call for als intercept when some thing is beyond my scope of knowledge. If the call is dispatched and a medic unit is in route, I have put them in service if I realize I can handle. I feel I am both a little trained and alittle educated. And I guess since I managed a couple of college degrees and to advance to where I am in the military, I might have some critical thinking skills. I refresh my training as often as I can, and I broaden my knowledge by reading and talking to people with more experience and education than I have.

[katbemeEMT-B]

Let me start by saying that I don't think it matters what job you do every one starts out as a trained monkey. It's when you use your ability to think that you move beyond that point. Look at our wonderful President. He couldn't think critically on his own if his life depended on it yet he is held in high regard by many. With that being said as you can see I have a very strong opinion on EMT-B's (whether volley or paid). I believe that although we do not have the same education as medics we are just as intelligent and just as capable to think critically (maybe even more so as we don't have a medics training so we have to reach deep within to find the means to the end for some patients). As was stated before, there are crappy EMT-bs and crappy medics. I know both. Just like there are crappy docs and nurses but also great ones. It comes down to how much we are willing to learn and if we are willing to continue to learn. I work as a Volley with a BLS service who gets paid very little for helping my community yet I continue to educate myself to give my patients the best care that I can. When I come across something that perplexes me I discuss it with the doctor and/or research it. I do my CE beyond and above what is needed to keep my state and national certification current. I also work as a casual on-call for a paid ALS service which I feel enhances my skills. I have learned many new skills which I wouldn't use on a BLS unit but have helped me to assist the nurses in the ED. I attend all the CME which are not required for me as I am not a medic. I go anyway because I figure it will only help me to assist the medic on the rig and broaden by horizon. Eventually, I would love to continue my schooling and become a medic but right now that isn't in the cards. Why? I am raising four children, working two jobs, and don't have two years to dedicate to school. Oh yeah, I am also putting a fifth child through college right now$$$ So I guess to sum up what I am saying, you can say that volleys suck, EMT-B's suck or whatever; what it actually comes down to is what each of these people make of themselves and how well they want to perform there job or any job for that matter. We are all monkeys at one point, it's just that some of us take the initiative to step beyond that and take control of our lives.

[BushyFromOz]

All formal training and education (unfortunately) is designed to provide for the lowest common denominator, although the lowest denominator varies from subject to subject. As much continuing education as you or i undertake that may/may not enable us to critically evaluate our pts, we can only be held to the standrd of our formal education.

If our formal education is only 120 hours, then we can formally not bee seen as being educated enough to enable critical thinking, no matter our personal endeavours outside of the formal education frameworks

I believe that although we do not have the same education as medics we are just as intelligent and just as capable to think critically (maybe even more so as we don't have a medics training so we have to reach deep within to find the means to the end for some patients

Education provides a working knowledge of varying subjects that enable you to critically weigh the evidence you have and make a decision. How do you justify this statement?

[Dustdevil]

None of us have enough education to be doing what were doing.

Plus 5!

Listen, folks. I have eight years of college, including nursing and biology degrees, and over thirty years of experience. Guess what... I STILL feel inadequate for my job! Anybody here with nothing but an EMT-B training course under their belt who is comfortable and confident with that is just plain dangerous, and should get out now! That delusion in itself is proof positive that you lack the necessary education and critical thinking skills to be entrusted with the lives of human beings for a living.

And where the hell did this whole, "We don't need no stinking paramedics to tell us anything!" attitude come from anyhow? I never, ever saw this attitude anywhere until the last few years. WTF? Is it just because this site is exposing me to people from areas I had not yet been familiar with, or is this new breed just a bunch of idiots?

Plus 5 to all the usual suspects here.

Minus 5 to a couple of n00bs who apparently just don't (or won't) get it. :?

[spenac]

Before I started advanced education I thought I was using critical thinking. In reality I found I was just missing a lot of things that should have gotten me worried. In 2 years time as a basic I was the highest level available for 1 week out of 3, worked 2 weeks on 1 week off ( avg 2+ transports with 90 mile transport ). During 2 years I called for ALS less than 20 times. Within 2 months of starting advanced classes I started seeing things I had been missing and started calling for ALS more often or if could reach medical director would get authorization to perform ALS interventions I had already studied, while we rushed to meet the mutual aid enroute to the hospital. I to thought that I was doing wonders as a basic, man were my eyes opened. I can not see staying a basic if going to stay in this profession.

[katbemeEMT-B]

I'm not saying that you should take your 120 hour course, become an EMT-B and be happy. I'm saying you have to continue learning while working. I learn where ever I can, whether it be on this site or some other site, classes or conferences I attend, or the wonderful medics I work with that are so willing to teach me. The reason they are willing to teach me? They realize that I want to continue to grow as an EMT. If I could go on to school right now to become a medic or better yet a doctor, I would but it's not in the cards for me. Maybe in a couple of years (I hope). In the same aspect no one person knows everything, not even GOD! So instead of putting each other down lets get along and try to teach each other how to better do our jobs.

[Dustdevil]

So instead of putting each other down lets get along and try to teach each other how to better do our jobs.

That's what this site is all about! Unfortunately, it is easier said than done.

You can't help people who don't think they need help. If somebody is really convinced that their 3 week first aid course (EMT- makes them an educated critical thinker, capable of medically assessing people's illnesses and determining their medical needs, then that person needs a lot more than any professional guidance we can give them. They need a reality check.

The first step towards recovery is admitting you have a problem.

Funny thing is, I have never heard somebody with an advanced education make these same silly assertions. Not once have I ever heard a medic say, "Wow, that was a waste of time. I already knew all this from EMT school!" And I never heard a nurse say, "wow that was a waste of time. I already knew all that from paramedic school!"

The problem is not medics putting basics down. The problem is basics with delusions of grandeur.

[flight-lp]

Last time I checked a TRAINED MONKEY COULD NOT do the job of an EMT-B. If it wasn't for EMT-B's you would be screwed around here. I think that I have enough brain cells to decide wether I need medics. I also know I don't need a medic to tell me it's a BLS run. When you run out here in the middle of no where land you let me know how it works. And yes protocols are in place for that reason. But there are many times that we as educated EMT's know that we do or don't need medics. I am a newbie here and very insulted by your attitude toward EMT-B's. It would be like me bad mouthing First responders. Out here they are a great asset to us and do there jobs well. But then I guess cause were not medics they could pay monkeys alot less.

okay I agree. I look at the schedule to know if someone should call an ambulance or not. There are some ahhh lets say non-aggresive EMT's. I just don't agree with the stand that flight lp took. I am nor is the guy who started this topic a dumbass. It was a general knowledge question from a BLS service and in the process we got slammed into the ground for doing our jobs. I think that flight lp could have used a little more tact thats all. And yes we are becoming advanced. Well those of us that can pass the class.

As I stated before, you don't have to agree with my beliefs, I could care less. I did utilize tact in my previous posts, perhaps you should reread my last post. Honestly though, if a tactful written statement on an online forum actually bothers you, then you have other issues that you may wish to look into..............

@khanek - Thanks for the insightful response. Although a rarity, it sounds like your organization really tries with what they have. Although I still believe ALS is a better option, at least you have the capabilities to utilize them if needed, again its better than just being out there with your stuff in the wind. Good luck to you....

[scratrat]

JUst a question for all here....

I work for a very rural BLS service, we have no hsptl in our county, and the nearest hsptl is apx 25-35 minutes aways. If pt is in need of als care we can call the hsptl for an intercept with medic, wich i am sure is a normal thing for BLS. But here is the question. Are medics call to much in cases where they are not needed? I have found that there are cases that EMT-B's call for medics just because they are not confident in there own skill level. What is it like where you are if you work for a BLS service?

Two things.

First, and definately foremost, what the hell is that avatar? Is that two chicks? Thats hot.

Second, now that I'm past that, to answer your original questions : yes, very often!

I can't even say much more because I don't want to get involved in the pissing contest that seems to have started in this thread. But yes, I've been called, VERY frequently, for patients who did not need ALS, did not even have an ALS issue, or flat out had no complaint.

End.

[Spankymedic]

Ofcourse I've been called when not really needed. It's an inherent part of a multi-tiered EMS system. Having been an EMT for 9-10 years prior to advancing to EMT-P, I myself have called for a MED unit perhaps when I may not have needed one. So I've been on both sides of the coin. My feelings on this? So what? Better safe than sorry. If nothing else, it can be used as an educational experience between all of the involved rescuers.