Any docs on here get offshore education?

[UMSTUDENT]

It's always been my theory that those who didn't get in anywhere were simply fooling themselves by even applying in the first place. I mean seriously, does anybody with a 3.8 science GPA and great MCAT scores not get in?

Actually, they do have problems getting in. The unfortunate thing about medical schools in the United States these days is that a lot of stuff outside of your academic ability plays into your chances of being accepted. Race, gender, income, family status, etc are all taken into account when admitting competitive individuals. On face value this isn't how its portrayed, but they do have their unique role. Obviously, people who are not competitive get the toss initially, but what it really comes down to in the end is "who deserves it more?"

Am I going to take Johnny Tambourine who has a 3.7 GPA, 34 MCAT, Paramedic, from an upper-class family?

OR

Bobby Tambourine who has a 3.6 GPA, 30 MCAT, research assistant, who grew-up in a lower class family?

Outside of social class these kids are relatively on the same playing field. Hell, they're probably both great kids!

The issue, at least from what I've seen at my university, is that the average middle-class American is at a severe disadvantage for ever making it to medical school. You're not rich enough to afford an Ivy education or the connections to buy yourself into competitive research programs and you're not poor enough to qualify for the tons of programs that baby-step “disadvantaged” kid through the med school process. You have to be absolutely stellar, have perfect grades, tons of volunteer experience, and go out and fight for these research opportunities on your own with minimal assistance from anyone.

For example, I met a girl recently who is trying to apply to a very competitive MPH program that I myself am interested in. On paper, she and I are both good students. We've taken roughly the same classes. From our conversations, it seems I've performed better in many of them. I also have an EMS and healthcare background, significant volunteer experience, teaching background, and a small publication credit. However; she has one HUGE advantage over me. She's from an upper middle-class family and her father is a researcher for the government. He provided her with a research assistant position in his lab and she was able to get her name on a published paper. I'm sure she worked hard for it, but the problem is simply that. I probably would have had to compete in a competitive selection process to get that same research position instead of utilizing nepotism.

These examples are everywhere. Another example,

A student of mine was in an EMT class because he wanted to improve his resume for medical school. He was a graduate of an Ivy League university with a degree in Bioengineering, an MCAT score of 32, a 3.6 GPA, and was a research assistant with a local university study. He applied to 18 allopathic medical schools in the United States. He was accepted at none, and wait-listed at 2. He was working on his second application cycle and needed to spend another 2,000 dollars on application fees, AMCAS fees, etc. The doesn't even include the fees to fly to interviews

I asked him what he thought kept him at a disadvantage and he explained it like this, "I got into my undergraduate school on scholarship and hard work. My family is upper middle-class, but they could have never paid my education by themselves. So on paper, I look like a stuck-up Ivy Leaguer, white kid with every advantage in the world...but I don't. I have no connections and little money to spend on fluffing my education like a lot of my peers. This is really my last ditch effort." The kid was an amazing student and really had a passion to do it. Maybe he interviews horribly or writes crappy personal statements, but does that make him a bad applicant?

The problem with medical school admissions is that they don't seem to have an insight on the true story. On paper they're using an objective set of criteria to admit students into their programs, but what they fail to realize is that some of that criteria is easier for certain people to accomplish. This has just been my observation. I think the difference for many people is that you just have to get over it and try your best, or seriously reconsider doing it at all. Play other cards in your deck and try again later. The traditional route to medical school isn't neccesarily for every applicant. When you do make it, make sure you have a say in changing the process.

[Ridryder 911]

Yeah, there are a few things that shouldn't be learned online, one of them being a medical degree. My residency director was a DO (we were a predominantly MD program). He was a real bright guy and there didn't seem to be anything he didn't know about. One of my co-residents asked him why he chose to go to DO school and his reply was that he didn't choose it. He partied a little too much as an undergrad and the DO stood for Do Over. This is in no way meant to put down DOs. Some people that make great doctors have their priorities slightly off as undergrads and luckily have an alternative path to take (DO, Carribean school, etc).

I do understand you point. What I find ironic is that within the past 15 years our local medical school has yet filled their numbers, and the D.O. program has more applicants than the M.D choosing D.O. over M.D. programs. Maybe it is a local perception, but I know of many that has refused the M.D. and rather go into the D.O. program. As well it appears the perception has changed (at least in the Midwest) of the D.O. now the emergency residency is now directed by D.O.'s in my state. Most have completed dual residencies, this is totally different aspect than 20 years ago, when a D.O. was not allowed to work in the E.D.

R/r 911

[kristo]

Since we're on the subject, anyone care to enlighten a foreigner on the difference between a DO and an MD? I always thought they were both doctors, just different styles of basically the same medical education - "than 20 years ago, when a D.O. was not allowed to work in the E.D. " - does that mean that DO is a lower degree, maybe something between PA and MD?

Apparently, it's just not in EMS you guys have a lot of levels - I'm used to only EMT (mostly) -> nurse's aid -> nurse -> doctor...

[ERDoc]

Since we're on the subject, anyone care to enlighten a foreigner on the difference between a DO and an MD? I always thought they were both doctors, just different styles of basically the same medical education - "than 20 years ago, when a D.O. was not allowed to work in the E.D. " - does that mean that DO is a lower degree, maybe something between PA and MD?

Apparently, it's just not in EMS you guys have a lot of levels - I'm used to only EMT (mostly) -> nurse's aid -> nurse -> doctor...

It is not really different levels as it is different philosophies. An MD is your traditional doctor. A DO (Doctor of osteopathic medicine) goes through the same schooling as an MD, except that in addition to what the MDs take, they also take courses in OMT (osteopathic manipulative therapy or whatever your local verbiage is). So they are in effect getting the same education and then some compared to MDs. Here is a little more info. The thing about DOs not being able to work in an ER 20 years ago stems from the ego of MDs who felt if you weren't an MD you weren't really a doctor. Things have changed now days and you find DOs in every specialty, including the surgical specialties.

[spenac]

Best doc I ever met was DO

[asrnj77]

Just getting back to original topic at hand, online med schools, which I think I brought up, are new and the word isn't out yet...I believe that at this stage it is the Excelsior College of M.D.'s. Excelsior produces some quality nurses but any nurse that went to traditional school is going to frown upon it. It's a perception that people feel it's the "easier" way to get an RN. I don't think it is easier, perhaps more convienient...nobody wants to feel that they broke the asses doing something and their counterpart is taking tests at starbucks

Like I said in the beginning...if you don't mind a low on the totem pole residency and the quality of education allows you to pass the UMLE..then what's the big deal? I don't believe you will ever hear a traditional MD or traditional med student have anything nice to say about an online MD. Both of those schools allow you to talk to graduates. I would seek them out and ask them how it's been going and if they would do it all over again. Oceania alone is $120,000 for the MD with no student loans (They have payment plans where you pay $1500 a month though). It's big bucks and not something I would jump into lightly but in the end you are a doctor - plain and simple.

[spenac]

Just getting back to original topic at hand, online med schools, which I think I brought up, are new and the word isn't out yet...I believe that at this stage it is the Excelsior College of M.D.'s. Excelsior produces some quality nurses but any nurse that went to traditional school is going to frown upon it. It's a perception that people feel it's the "easier" way to get an RN. I don't think it is easier, perhaps more convienient...nobody wants to feel that they broke the asses doing something and their counterpart is taking tests at starbucks

Like I said in the beginning...if you don't mind a low on the totem pole residency and the quality of education allows you to pass the UMLE..then what's the big deal? I don't believe you will ever hear a traditional MD or traditional med student have anything nice to say about an online MD. Both of those schools allow you to talk to graduates. I would seek them out and ask them how it's been going and if they would do it all over again. Oceania alone is $120,000 for the MD with no student loans (They have payment plans where you pay $1500 a month though). It's big bucks and not something I would jump into lightly but in the end you are a doctor - plain and simple.

Yup still cheaper to go accross the border and buy a degree and become dr.

Online gets a bad rap. Most classes online are just as good if it comes from reputable school. With online you can cover material more than once. Also many reputable online programs require a lot more research. A lot less distractions. Able to keep regular job. Lots of positives. Negatives must be self motivated. Your alone, limited interaction. Of course reputable online schools still require certain parts be done in person.

I personally feel most classes at adult education levels could be done online. Why sit in a crowded lecture hall when I can be comfortable and rewind if I miss something.

[kristo]

Yup still cheaper to go accross the border and buy a degree and become dr.

Online gets a bad rap. Most classes online are just as good if it comes from reputable school. With online you can cover material more than once. Also many reputable online programs require a lot more research. A lot less distractions.

Well, everyone who's ever been in university knows that most classes are just a waste of time that could have been used studying. That said, there is a certain guarantee involved if you have to be physically present when certain things are covered.

Also, in medical school, most subjects have labs. Anatomy, dissection labs, histology, excruciatingly boring times with the microscopes, biochemistry, physiology, the list goes on. Those definitely require physical presence.

Able to keep regular job.

Keep a job during medical school? You must be kidding. I know a lot of medical students in at least two countries and I don't know of anyone who works when school is in session. Obviously, we all work 90-100 hour weeks during summer and christmas breaks, but not while we're at school.

Of course reputable online schools still require certain parts be done in person.

Doesn't that take away the positive parts of studying online? I mean, in my school lecture attendance is mostly not compulsory (seminars and labs are, though), and lecture slides are available at the department's websites...does that mean my school is providing "online education"?

I personally feel most classes at adult education levels could be done online. Why sit in a crowded lecture hall when I can be comfortable and rewind if I miss something.

I'm not sure. How about asking questions? Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, I usually don't even go to lectures, so I guess I wouldn't mind if they were online...

[spenac]

ask questions? email your prof.

To verify presence I have seen some online programs actually post questions every so often that have to be researched answered and sent in.

[ERDoc]

Best doc I ever met was DO

Yeah, but I'm an MD! :wink: