HOBET A&P?

[IowaEMT]

I'm going to be applying to the University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinic's Paramedic training program in the summer of 2008. I was looking at their site today to see what the admission requirements are. One of them stipulated that you have to take the HOBET anatomy and physiology level 1 exam and score at or above the national average. Can anyone who has taken the test tell me how much you need to know for the level 1 exam? Is it basic stuff or should I take a college level course to get ready for it?

[Richard B the EMT]

Is that not a type critter from Middle Earth?

Forgive me, just being silly.

[JakeEMTP]

If you haven't achieved some further education in A & P, I would highly recommend it before taking the HOBET. After a quick Google search to actually find out WTF it is, it seems to ask very specific A & P questions that without some College education you may be unprepared for come test time.

Besides, taking A & P I & II can't be a bad thing can it? The more knowledge you can obtain the better of you will be and you will be more prepared for when you actually start Paramedic courses.

Good luck!

[Dustdevil]

Plus 5 to that school for actually having some requirement for prerequisite knowledge.

Although, I still strongly maintain that any school that does not absolutely require two semesters of college A&P and Microbiology probably sucks.

And yes, other medics will quickly be able to tell that you didn't have those courses when you get out to the field and start working with them. It's painfully obvious.

Back to your question, what do you mean by "basic stuff?" Do you mean stuff you would have learned in HS biology, or just stuff you think every human knows from being human?

[IowaEMT]

Back to your question, what do you mean by "basic stuff?" Do you mean stuff you would have learned in HS biology, or just stuff you think every human knows from being human?

The things you'd learn in HS Biology. What would microbiology help you with?

[reaper]

You need A&P and MB.

You need to understand how the body works and functions, to better understand your treatments.

I hate medics that give meds, but can't tell me what that med is doing and how it is reacting.

[Dustdevil]

What would microbiology help you with?

Well, if you don't understand the human body, you have no hope of understanding disease processes. And if you don't understand disease processees, you have no hope of diagnosing them or determining an intelligent treatment plan for them. So pretty much, it helps you to be a decent medic.

Again, if a school doesn't require it, it probably sucks.

[kristo]

Well, if you don't understand the human body, you have no hope of understanding disease processes. And if you don't understand disease processees, you have no hope of diagnosing them or determining an intelligent treatment plan for them. So pretty much, it helps you to be a decent medic.

Again, if a school doesn't require it, it probably sucks.

...or teaches it. Don't you guys have any paramedic schools that teach stuff like anatomy, physiology, microbiology, etc. from the scratch? Seems strange that paramedic schools would have entrance requirements in those subjects when even medical schools don't (since it's in their curriculum).

[Dustdevil]

...or teaches it. Don't you guys have any paramedic schools that teach stuff like anatomy, physiology, microbiology, etc. from the scratch? Seems strange that paramedic schools would have entrance requirements in those subjects when even medical schools don't (since it's in their curriculum).

Hmmm... you must have a different system there than in the U.S. To get into medical school here, you have to have four years of prerequisite science courses. You don't start from scratch in medical school. Med school only takes you deeper and specialises in human applications of the bio and chem you already learned. Same thing with nursing, except that it is 2 years of prerequisites instead of four.

Medic schools in the U.S. vary. The degree programmes all require a couple semesters of A&P, but many of them don't require microbiology or chemistry. And not all of them require the courses prior to beginning the medic classes, just before graduation. The non-degree tech school programmes very rarely require any sort of educational prerequisites, and they only give you a few hours of very basic A&P within the normal coursework. Certainly nothing even coming remotely close to a full A&P course. That's why U.S. medics can proudly tell you there are 206 bones in the body, but can usually name less than thirty of them, much less describe the functions of the cranial nerves or explain any kind of endocrine processes.

But they all think they should be allowed more scope of practice and to practise as RNs without a bunch of extra book learnin'.

[kristo]

Hmmm... you must have a different system there than in the U.S. To get into medical school here, you have to have four years of prerequisite science courses. You don't start from scratch in medical school. Med school only takes you deeper and specialises in human applications of the bio and chem you already learned. Same thing with nursing, except that it is 2 years of prerequisites instead of four.

Yes, we do have a somewhat different system. Here, we do have to finish four years of what is akin to the American college concept (similar or just more than an American associates degree), and after that, we can take an entrance examination in order to get into medical school. My major in "college" was natural sciences, I believe it was so with an overwhelming majority of medical students.

Medical school here is six years, which may or may not include one year of internship, which is a set of fixed rotations (commonly divided between internal med, surgery, psychiatry, neurology, pediatrics, and OB/GYN). Before getting a full license as a physician the internship will have to be completed, it is either a part of the school's 6-6,5 years, or taken after the sixth year as part of the curriculum, depending on the school.

Nursing is pretty much the same, except it's four years in university, after college. Same goes there, people don't get far in nursing without majoring in natural sciences.

In the American model, medical students usually start their residency immediately after medical school, and the residency includes their internship year, specialized in their chosen field. Like I said earlier, here, the internship is mixed and a part of the medical school curriculum. Here, a new doctor will usually work for a few years before choosing a residency, to get some experience. Those doctors are called "department doctors", and will usually work at a hospital under the guidance of specialist doctors (I believe "attending physicians" is the American term, called consultants in the UK).

Residencies typically take longer than in the US, too, for example, a specialization in general practice (family practice) takes five years. Specialization for nurses is usually less, 0,5 - 2 years, depending on their chosen field (after their four years in nursing + a few years work experience).

Medic schools in the U.S. vary. The degree programmes all require a couple semesters of A&P, but many of them don't require microbiology or chemistry. And not all of them require the courses prior to beginning the medic classes, just before graduation. The non-degree tech school programmes very rarely require any sort of educational prerequisites, and they only give you a few hours of very basic A&P within the normal coursework. Certainly nothing even coming remotely close to a full A&P course. That's why U.S. medics can proudly tell you there are 206 bones in the body, but can usually name less than thirty of them, much less describe the functions of the cranial nerves or explain any kind of endocrine processes.

...and since Icelandic EMS is generally convinced anything that comes from Pittsburgh must be good, they're all over it. NREMT is the golden standard, believe it or not. Most ALS EMS is provided by NREMT-I's (in major urban areas, people are hired in from the street, trained as EMT-B's, can start EMT-I in about two years, required to get certified before 3 years on the job, paramedic certification encouraged, payed for for a few chosen ones after a few years as EMT-Is, but that requires a trip to the US, since we don't have any paramedic schools here).

Luckily, EMS in Iceland traditionally has doctors responding with EMS to most ALS calls. The rule of the thumb is that anything including respitory distress, young children, chest pain, big trauma, etc. warrants a doctor as a third person on the ambulance. Coast guard helicopters (the government's only helicopters, so used for law enforcement, medevac, SAR, anything) are always staffed with one ER doc + one EMT-B when flying, just in case there's an EMS call requiring medevac.

But they all think they should be allowed more scope of practice and to practise as RNs without a bunch of extra book learnin'.

Of course. My roots are in volunteer SAR. When I completed my Wilderness First Responder class (NREMT FR + 30 hours of wilderness "medical" training), I was convinced that I could save the world all by myself, given that I had the blue WFR patch firmly sowed on the shoulder of all my SAR uniform stuff. I saw clearly then, how the traditional 40 hour wilderness first aid training given to SAR members was in no way sufficient.

After 1,5 years as a WFR, I went to a 181 hour Wilderness EMT course in the US - termed overeducation by many of my peers in SAR - and then I realized that after WFR, I knew just enough to be dangerous. At this point, I got two patches, NREMT-B and W-EMT, which I proudly wore instead of the (now lame) WFR patch. At this point, I also got a duty belt filled with stuff I would never use, but made out of black nylon, which totally justified it's weight, and a whacker bag for my car, a 65 liter medical backpack, filled with various stuff around and above my level of training. Needless to say I almost never used that thing, as I preferred to go light on calls that included walking, and as my specialty in SAR was sea rescue and diving, and I didn't want to expose my whacker bag to the salty sea...

I grew up, luckily, sold my whacker bag to the SAR team, lost my duty belt (I tend to deny its existence nowadays) and removed the patches from my shoulders. I was still interested in medicine, so I completed college in night school and went to medical school. Now I'm realizing every day how little I know.