the ultimate throwaway baby - makes me sick

[Scaramedic]

Ah yeah the old in-out therapy. Savage, very savage.

Peace,

Marty

[Jess]

I got to thinking and I don't really think this is an issue of girls getting pregnant because sex "feels good" or "not enough sex education" I don't think there is any amount of sex education that will prevent something like this. Like Dwayne said, we need to get to the root of why she is broken and why she did this so it can be prevented in the future.

I came to an interesting conclusion though. Young mothers that get pregnant often hit that denial stage and cant get out of it. Most of us in EMS see the results of denial everyday. Mothers have spent so much time denying they are pregnant that there is no motive for killing their children--because in their minds, there is no baby. It makes sense to me and I'm quite sure there is more to it then that. I myself am just as guilty at pointing fingers saying "how dare you do this to a child" but I bet when you break it down and do a little research like I have been doing for the past 2 hours, you will see that there isn't much of a motive for their actions and that a lot of this has absolutely nothing to do with lack of sex education. A lot of it is denial and how easy it is to not take responsibility. I'm not making excuses for their behavior but instead stating my findings in my research. I by no means condone this behavior but instead I was just curious on what the motive is behind it. There are so many but my final conclusion? denial. just my 2 cents and also I'm curious if anyone else finds anything besides the obvious "well she's just crazy in the head to do this" sure she is but it still doesn't answer why. This brings up interesting discussion! take care everyone!

[hammerpcp]

That isn't really a solution. It's actually more of a root of the problem. The current availability and acceptability of abortion is responsible for the societal cheapening of human life that results in people thinking nothing of flushing one down the toilet or leaving it in a dumpster. If medical murder were not accepted by society, then we wouldn't have this slippery slope that allows people to rationalize committing murder themselves.

Oh, you're in big trouble now mister!

Unfortunately there is absolutely no truth to your statement. It would be nice if we could say that one particular thing, and recently occurring thing no less, is to blame for the cheapening of human life. the fact of the matter is that, as I believe you have pointed out previously, that if we go back to fundamentals of life, the weak do not survive. Also, those with weak parents do not survive. ("weak" is not being used here in any judgmental way, only for lack of a better word. "Weak" is used to describe the failure to survive. That's all.)

Murder existed long before abortion was legalized. Abortions occurred long before they were legalized. The difference is that women can now have a fairly good chance of surviving the procedure with reproductive organs intact. Infanticide is hardly a new idea either. In fact I counter your argument by saying that human life is held in much higher esteem in this mode3rn world then it ever was in the past. What do you think happened to malformed or mentally retarded children 200 years ago? Do you think they were actively integrated into society? Were there equal opportunity trash bins? You all seem to forget what the alternative to welfare and social assistance is. Never mind the huge existing inequalities especially in American society but imagine if it was not only possible but common for people to have no income? Can you imagine what having NO income means for your life, your health, your future, you’re offspring? How can you condemn a woman for attempting to kill a parasite that will have a retched life and ruin any chance for her to improve her life….and in the same breath say that this same woman should not have any support by society? It just isn’t logical. Let’s take these people off social assistance and see how the infanticide and unwanted pregnancy rate rises. Oh sorry lady, I know you have no shelter and nothing to eat but why didn’t you take birth control?!! Ridiculous.

Also, men have a sweet escape from this whole issue. In fact it’s a non-issue for them. A young man can be ignorant and irresponsible and uneducated or whatever but he will never have to face the problem of having a parasitic growth ruining his life. In fact he can disappear and forget any responsibility. This woman is just trying to do the same. I am not condoning her actions but rather I am trying to offer some understanding because after reading all these posts that seems to be what is most lacking. This is a societal problem people, your society, and you are your society.

In conclusion…..abortion is not the cause of any of these problems. If I didn’t know you Dust I might be annoyed at your stupidity but since I know you are not a stupid person I believe that you don't even really believe this.

As long as I am digging myself a hole here I figure why stop now? Adoption is something I just don’t get. Why would you want the offspring of someone who cannot care for their offspring? According to me in the vast majority of cases a failure to be able to care for your offspring indicates a failure in life and therefore more then likely a failure in genetics ,biology and environment. Also, how healthy do you think a baby is going to be that has been incubated by someone who doesn’t want it. Why would I quit smoking and drugs and take my folic acid and maternal vitamins to ensure the health of a being that I don’t want and don’t want to raise? The motivation is much less. Anyhoo, I have good genes and functioning reproductive organs and am willing to provide you with offspring for a price. :twisted:

This is why I have such a strong opinion about a person who can just throw their baby away as this girl did. It will continue to happen until the law reaches out and says enough is enough and truly starts punishing them. It should not matter what your background is, nothing makes up for attempting to murder your child. In my opinion, when it comes to a baby or child, there should be no psychological defense. The baby is the victim not the perpetrator. It's time to stop these incidents from happening.

The way the War on Drugs has eliminated illegal drug usage from the U.S.? Perhaps you mean the way the death penalty put a stop to murder?

Excellent point Dwayne. You just saved me a lot of time.

Yay Dwayne! /me waving my flag and recruiting cheerleaders. :hello1:

She didn't say they needed to be punished. She said they need to be more severely punished. Apparently, prison isn't severe enough. Perhaps there is a point to that.

Hahaha! Spoken like a true Texan!

Perhaps there is a point to that but it’s much more likely that there isn’t. How well is your death penalty working as a deterrent Mr. Texas? What form of punishment is more severe then death?

[DwayneEMTP]

She didn't say they needed to be punished. She said they need to be more severely punished. Apparently, prison isn't severe enough. Perhaps there is a point to that.

Punishment isn't working, and in the form of prison, is never going to work on these types of behaviors. Punishment is a lousy way to educate, that's been a proven scientific fact for ages. When it works, which is seldom, it's effects are very weak, and it needs to be applied (the severity is incidental in most case, the timing vital) at the time of the behavior and then removed immediately when the behavior is extinguished. We're unable to do that in these situations.

The problem with punishment is that it sometimes appears to work (superstitious reinforcement for the punisher) and it feels good! People like it. It allows them to continue to believe they are doing something useful, when in fact they are replacing intelligent thought with this feel-good pack behavior.

What do they call that again, when you continue to do the same thing over and over again, expecting different results....?

Also, when punishment does work, it effects decisions. It allows you to choose one of the life skills you've developed and use it, instead of any of the other tools in your mental toolbox. Do you believe she woke up in the morning and said "I don't think I'll have this baby today, but if I do, I suppose I might as well deliver it by myself in a dirty bathroom and then try and flush it down the toilet." Me either. She ended up in a situation, probably starting long before she actually got pregnant, for which she had no tools, no skills. There is nothing rational about this girls story or behavior. We need to stop pretending that this child was hurt simply because of this one girl's decisions. There are a ton of people responsible for this tragedy, those that caused her damage, and those that allowed her to end up here without having better options, that we should be looking at.

Should we take steps to make sure, now that she's been identified as a danger, that she can't damage other human beings? Of course. But we should do so with a heavy heart, knowing that her failure is a black mark on the report card that addresses our function as a society. Not with this celebration of "yeah! burn the witch!"

Hating her is easy, fun for many, but lazy.

Keep your head down Dust...We look forward to getting you home safe!

Dwayne

[DwayneEMTP]

[DwayneEMTP]

SouthernJess, great post!

At some point we have to change the questions the majority are asking.

Right now= "How do we punish these behaviors?"

Some day (hopefully) = "How do we prevent these behaviors?"

Have a great day!

Dwayne

[Jess]

SouthernJess, great post!

At some point we have to change the questions the majority are asking.

Right now= "How do we punish these behaviors?"

Some day (hopefully) = "How do we prevent these behaviors?"

Have a great day!

Dwayne

Thank you Dwayne! I actually shocked myself at how much it all clicks with me, perhaps I have a future in psychology? LOL! I took a psych class and 4 years of sociology and 2 years of a class called American Problems. I can honestly say this topic never came up. It brings up interesting discussion and your absolutely right in needing to change the way the public copes with it. Its so easy to sit and point fingers, but rarely does anyone say "okay, hold up, what motive was behind this? How can it be prevented? What can I do to help?" Makes things quite interesting! I love all the points everyone is bringing up. Keep posting people! Have a great day!

[katbemeEMT-B]

Okay Dwayne, first off, the responses for murdering the babies in my post were listed. For privacy reasons I did not state which responses go with which scenario or who stated them. I can not. I'm sorry I can't embellish more, but by giving detail could possibly give a parent's identity and I can't take that chance. It would jeopardize our organization.

I don't agree with you that a psychological defense is a defense at all. I am tired of ALL criminals getting off because they weren't in their right mind. Let me tell you, there are times I'm not in my right mind, but I don't run out and commit crimes. Maybe it is because the people around them just don't care enough to notice, but they should still be held accountable. Murder is murder! Attempted murder is attempted murder!

I do not place those who have had an abortion in the same category as murderers. While I myself could never have an abortion, I also feel as a woman, it is our choice. I do have a hard time understanding why a healthy woman, whose unborn baby is healthy, would want to terminate that pregnancy. I look at the many couples who would give everything they own to have a baby and it makes me sad to know that there are woman out there that feel that an unborn baby is nothing. I also think about some of the parents I have worked with who have suffered multiple miscarriages and will never be able to conceive a baby again. It breaks my heart. I guess the human side of me has a hard time understanding how a woman, who is suppose to have a natural nurturing instinct, could think of her unborn baby as nothing and just dispose of it.

The other thing I have seen here several times is more education. Yep, maybe more education is needed. But in the same aspect, a hundred years ago, how educated were the girls. You didn't see them running around killing their babies. I think what it actually comes down to is more tolerance in society than anything. It is more acceptable for young girls to become pregnant. Some one is always willing to find some excuse WHY she killed her baby. The courts are willing to plea bargain and give her a cake walk of a sentence if any at all. In reality, society has cheapened the life of the preterm and term baby. Think of it this way, if this same girl would have walked down the street and killed a 70y/o grandma sitting on a park bench reading a book, where would she be right now? She would be in jail awaiting trial for murder. We wouldn't even be discussing it on the forum. The same standards should be held in this case.

You also asked me something to the effect of how many woman that live around me would be capable of flushing their own baby? Well, I wouldn't say that number is zero. As I have said, I have worked with some that have purposely caused miscarriages and even been convicted of murder (one was a father). I would also have to say that I know a few that had family not stepped in, their children probably wouldn't be alive today. This is where those around the woman are at fault. They see things that are going on, yet they do nothing. They close their eyes to it. It doesn't matter if it's a mother, father, husband, boyfriend, friend, or employer; if they see things that are, for a lack of a better word, out of the norm, they have a responsibility to alert some one who can take care of it. But it comes back to the great American way of not wanting to get involved.

I maybe don't have all the answers, but I also know that it is a problem. I also know that some of the problem is just plain indifference towards human life. Some is arrogance and the need to project a certain image. The kids of today don't think like they used to. They have been taught that EVERYTHING is disposable and they take that to heart. They have been left to fend for themselves because their parents are too busy living their own lives, so they don't possess the same morals and values that used to exist. It's not so much a generation of kids raising kids but of kids raising themselves. That is truly sad.

My upbringing was horrible. The only sunshine in my life was my maternal grandmother whom I didn't see often. My family was then and still is one of the most dysfunctional you will ever meet. I spent many years flopping in the wind. I graduated from high school and had my son two days later. He was a turning point in my life. It took some time but I realized that I HAD to provide him a better life than I had. I gave him everything I could, but the most important thing I gave him was my time and love. I made it a point to be involved in his life and to be the kind of parent I never had. I watched how other parents did it and immitated them. By the time he was five, I had it down to a fine science, which is when I also got married. Unfortunately, my choice in men hadn't changed. Through my divorce, I have taught my children to be strong and believe in themselves. I have also taught them to stand up for what they believe in. I have worked hard to be a part of their lives and stay involved in all that they do. I support them and encourage them even if I'm not so sure it's the right activity (my daughter tried out for football). While being there for my kids, I have also been able to give us a very nice home and I drive a nice car. There isn't a lot that my kids need. They maybe don't have all the newest gadgets that some of the other kids have but that's okay. I'm also helping my oldest get through college, and paying for sports for my other two kids. I work two jobs so I can do this (cause in EMS you can and still be home with the kids). We scrimp and save where we can. So in response to your question Dwayne, even if you aren't born into a family where you are taught to have respect for yourself and life, you can learn it by observing others. Every person has the ability to teach themselves what they really want out of life and who they want to be. It truly depends on what you want and how hard you're willing to work to get there.

[akflightmedic]

The other thing I have seen here several times is more education. Yep, maybe more education is needed. But in the same aspect, a hundred years ago, how educated were the girls. You didn't see them running around killing their babies. I think what it actually comes down to is more tolerance in society than anything. It is more acceptable for young girls to become pregnant.

First, how do you know? Do you think rural women reported their dead babies to the town? Do you think they told them where the body was? This happened in urban areas just as well, there was just less instant media to report such things, and a dead baby was exactly that...a dead baby. It was life and usually attributed to other causes.

Do you think this is something they actually studied and documented, how many babies were killed or tossed? I highly doubt it, so how do you know? I am willing to bet many, many babies were tossed or killed off due to unwant, disfigurement, rapist's baby, or any other circumstance one can imagine.

Second, they had potions, teas, rituals, etc to end unwanted pregnancies. Did they always work? Who knows? Abortions are nothing new. Procedures have been around for a very long time, more than a hundred years.

Society was just as tolerant back then as they are now. The tolerant act was not acknowledging it or speaking of it, but it indeed was tolerated.

[katbemeEMT-B]

First, how do you know? Do you think rural women reported their dead babies to the town? Do you think they told them where the body was? This happened in urban areas just as well, there was just less instant media to report such things, and a dead baby was exactly that...a dead baby. It was life and usually attributed to other causes.

Do you think this is something they actually studied and documented, how many babies were killed or tossed? I highly doubt it, so how do you know? I am willing to bet many, many babies were tossed or killed off due to unwant, disfigurement, rapist's baby, or any other circumstance one can imagine.

Second, they had potions, teas, rituals, etc to end unwanted pregnancies. Did they always work? Who knows? Abortions are nothing new. Procedures have been around for a very long time, more than a hundred years.

Society was just as tolerant back then as they are now. The tolerant act was not acknowledging it or speaking of it, but it indeed was tolerated.

Sorry if I mislead anyone, I was not talking about abortion. I am referring to mothers that deliver their babies and then kill them. And yes, it may have happened, but I bet it wasn't very often. Unfortunately, I wasn't alive back then so I don't have the statistics. Tolerance has always been a problem in society, regardless of what act we are talking about.