Dissapointment

[Scaramedic]

Bashing - 1. To strike or smash something bluntly; to beat or batter.

2. To attack something or someone harshly or maliciously with words.

Example: Admin has a big butt!

Dialog - an exchange of ideas via conversation

Example: Is Admin's butt the size of a '56 Cadillac or a Buick?

Peace,

Marty

P.S. Just kidding boss.

[AMESEMT]

Thanks all for the posts. It does provide a little more in depth reason why there is such a sometimes overwhelming negative feeling about volunteer services. I am not offended, but just amazed in a concerned way about the bashing and negativity when someone does state they are a volunteer, and in general the attitude toward that person. I completely understand the need for the revamping or elimination of the volunteer services. However, I was raised to look at both sides of the issue and consider the reasons for the other side. That is what I am doing here. Dust, I agree with you, people need to be the very best no matter what the type of service they work/volunteer for, and by not doing that they hurt the profession.

Dust, you say that the disrespect here is nothing compared to the disrespect I will receive out in the world, I have already seen it and experienced it. Where I work I have had managers and fellow workers disrespected me. But many learn that I give 110% when I work if I get the respect I deserve, once they disrespect me I don't do that anymore, I do just is what is required. In the EMS world, that might not work (I don't know), but I am a strong believer that if a manager is not treating me with the respect and we can't come to a mutual agreement, I leave. There are other jobs out there, especially for paramedics, where I will be treated with respect. With regards to patients, it is just like the customers I deal with, I don't see them that long to worry about it. I understand they have things going on in their lives and I am just seeing them on a bad day. It is the disrespect here that bothers me...people come here to share ideas and experiences in a place where they feel they will not encounter that.

Dust, you seem like the medic that I would like to learn from in the field. You don't show disrespect like others, no matter what the post is, and you have a lot of knowledge and experience you are willing to share. I hope the people that do disrespect quite often, and I have dealt with a few here, will follow your lead and change their attitude and approach to a subject.

Thank you everyone for your posts. I truly did gain a better insight into some of the attitude toward volly services. I am sure I will disagree with posts here and there and I will put my 2 cents in and may even catch flak for it. No problem, to each their own, I am willing to learn and see others points of view and reasons behind it, just like with this post. I look forward to seeing more posts where I can hopefully contribute and gain good insight.

Thanks and be safe out there!

AMESEMT

P.S. Thanks scaramedic for the humor! Made me laugh. Saw it as I was previewing the above...

[Richard B the EMT]

I have been working the ambulances, 9-1-1 type Volunteer, paid non 9-1-1 ambulance services, hospital based and fire service based 9-1-1 responders (the EMS in NYC used to be under NYC Health and Hospitals Corporation, until the Mayor decided to force it into a merger with the FDNY, who now manages it), for 34 years.

In each of them, I have met good people, and bad people. I have met people who, for the life of me, I cannot figure out how they got certified as either EMTs or Paramedics, or got New York State to grant them a driver's licence. I have met people who I think could teach the classes better than those who were the teachers.

Figure it this way: in EMS, as in the rest of your life, you will meet both the best and the worst of society.

Final thinking point: Remember, to the other guy, YOU are the other guy. How are you being viewed?

[stcommodore]

I volly as an EMT-B and a firefighter and really sit in the middle of the issue. It's very clear that if the powers that be can find people to do the job for free why would they go and pay people for it? So in a larger picture having a group (often the majority) that does it for free will in turn drag down the pay for those who are paid for the profession.

I in no way want to compare the skill levels, training or dedication of volly vs. paid but focus more on the advancement of the profession. Are departments becomming paid because vollies left and the system came close to or collapsed? I hope not, I hope that goverments or whatever body reconized the need to have a dedicated service and moved to creating combonation or paid services.

[FredG]

To stay on topic, I was also a bit disappointed at the strength of the anti-vollie response I received in a couple of other topics...but I decided to lurk a bit more and read the opinions of the other posters to get a better understanding of the reason for their opinion.

I also currently volunteer as an EMT-B in a rural area and I worked in a paid system before changing careers. I enjoy working int he EMS system, regardless of paid or volunteer. When I decided to change careers, it was a tough decision. At the time that I was trying to decide on whether to stay in EMS, I was also looking at my future and moving to a rural area, where there are less paid EMS opportunities. I also looked at salaries and the expense of getting certified at a higher level. If salaries in EMS were dramatically better and I saw more chance of advancement, then I probably would have remained in a paid EMS service and upgraded to EMT-P.

That being said, when I moved to upstate NY, I discovered that the paid services (even in the small cities within driving distance) have extremely low-balled their salaries. It is a shame that I was getting paid better as a fresh EMT-B (15 years ago) in a private ambulance in NYC than paramedics with a boatload of experience are getting paid in my region now. What is even worse is that in my current field of employment, I took a 20% pay cut when I changed employers. Talking to people in other industries, that seems to be the average salary difference between my region of upstate NY and NYC, so I would have expected EMS to have a similar salary difference, not have a salary of almost 50% less.

Now, I also see how rural services work and the budgetary constraints involved, so I see the need for volunteer services in rural areas. Can it be done as a paid service...possibly. I am open to the idea, but I do not think it will work everywhere. I also do not subscribe to the theory that volunteers are the main reason why EMS salaries are low. Volunteer services may have an affect on salaries at the BLS level, but from what I have seen in NYS, there are very few volunteer services that provide ALS, and many that do are not 24/7 ALS. So, why are paramedic salaries so low. I personally think the primary reason is greedy corporations and a lack of a unified EMS voice.

What I'm basically trying to say is that I have seen both sides of the argument and I don't think it is as black and white as some people have posted previously. Also, I am not here to be argumentative, rather, I want to see EMS as a whole improve. In my opinion, all EMS providers, paid or volunteer, should be trying to improve themselves and their quality of care. In that vein, I will not hesitate to chime in when I think I have something of merit to add and I will continue to visit because of the wealth of posts and ideas throughout the forum.

[stcommodore]

Townships, Boro's, etc find a way to pay for a Police Department, Trash Service, and Utilities right? Then as part of the drive for a professional image why should we be viewed as anything less? Granted not every service is run by the goverment and most recieve tax money from the local they serve this is a larger argument then just the sides we are presenting.

-Just playing devil's advocate

[spenac]

There is no reason for any service to remain volly. As another poster mentioned citys find away to pay for what ever they want to. Here is a good discussion on it:

http://www.emtcity.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.ph...32&start=15

[Dustdevil]

To stay on topic, I was also a bit disappointed at the strength of the anti-vollie response I received in a couple of other topics...

To be accurate and fair, think carefully about those responses. Did anybody ever say vollies are arseholes? Did anybody say they suck and should die? Any comments about their mother? Not that I recall. What I have always seen here is people (well, at least me personally) simply trying to discourage them from volunteering and taking great efforts to explain exactly why we feel this way. We explain why it hurts them. We explain why it hurts the profession. We suggest and explain better alternatives that will greatly contribute to their professional success and to the growth of the profession. That's a far cry from bashing anybody personally. I think the offence talked about here usually comes as a matter of poor interpretation, rather than from any malicious intent on our part. Unfortunately, such is the nature of the Internet. The printed word is not nearly as expressive as the spoken word. Consequently, people have a tendency to assume intended offence anytime they hear something they don't understand or don't agree with. That is unfortunate. But that is where the value of sticking around comes in. Once you continue to read the reasoning behind all of this, I believe that any person with the mature intelligence and temperament necessary to be an EMS professional can come to an understanding of the issue and the opinions surrounding it.

I also do not subscribe to the theory that volunteers are the main reason why EMS salaries are low. Volunteer services may have an affect on salaries at the BLS level, but from what I have seen in NYS, there are very few volunteer services that provide ALS, and many that do are not 24/7 ALS. So, why are paramedic salaries so low.

Ah, but vollies are a great contributor to that problem. You see, when you consider the big picture, you can't just look at it from our point of view. You have to view it from three different angles. Obviously, the first angle is that from the insight of an EMS provider. Second is the angle from the general public's point of view. Third, and finally, you have to see it from a politician's point of view.

From the EMS perspective, you are seeing it rather clearly. But you are failing to see the public's point of view. And from where they sit, there is no difference between an EMT and a paramedic and a firefighter. All they see is the ambulance. As long as that shows up, they believe they have adequate EMS. Now, this is where the politician's point of view comes in. The public is satisfied with what they have, because frankly, they neither know what they have, nor what they could have. They are blissfully ignorant. And if the public is satisfied, why would you make waves and try to milk money out of your constituents for something they don't think they need? That is political suicide. So again, so long as the big truck with the pretty lights shows up when they call it, everybody is happy and nobody is the wiser... until something really bad happens.

So, back to your point... in a volunteer community, why is it that the ambulance shows up when people call for it? That's right, because somebody volunteered to drive it there. Consequently, the public thinks they have a "paramedic" service, so everything is fine and dandy in their world. Therefore, less than progressive and visionary communities are happy to get by with the very least they can possibly get. And even those who realise that they could have a lot more by hiring paramedics still aren't going to make that quantum leap from "free" to "professional wages" when, for no money at all, their citizens would still be perfectly happy.

I personally think the primary reason is greedy corporations and a lack of a unified EMS voice.

Both valid points. As for the unified voice thing, that is indeed a huge problem for us. Unfortunately, nobody seems to want to face the fact that disunity cannot simply be eliminated by telling everybody to shake hands and play nice. In order for there to be unity among any group, they have to be united by core values and goals. Currently, there are just way too many goals and values out there, with very few of them having anything to do with quality patient care. The vollies are in it for themselves (although they call it "giving back to the community"). The firemonkeys are in it for job security because, as studies cite, we simply don't need them for much else anymore. The privates are in it for a buck (although, it's a LOT less bucks than you think). About the only organisations I see that seem to have any semblance of a patient-care based purpose are hospital based programmes, and even they usually do so in order to reap the PR and referral benefits of providing EMS at a net loss. Consequently, unity among the current factions simply is not possible. It's not even worth the grief to try. It's a total waste of time and effort. The only way to have unity in EMS is to enact changes that ensure that everybody is here for the same reason. That reason must be medical care. "Public safety" won't work. It has failed miserably at progressing one bit in thirty five years.

Everybody wants a piece of this pie, but splitting it up weakens it to incapacitating levels. And putting all the pieces back together again is simply not possible. The only possible workable solution is to bake a whole new pie.

Good post, Fred. :thumbright:

[Richard B the EMT]

While this is written partly in jest, just remember, a politician's job, after job one of getting reelected, is to legislate using the smallest amount of money for the maximum effect. Witness back in 1998, the FDNY activated a large number of additional units, but rather than hiring new personnel, mandated overtime of everybody to put butts on the ambulance seats. Figure we normally work an 8 hour day, and then get forced to work an additional 6. Pick up the kids after work? Can't, you gotta work. Forget that doctor's appointment, or your marriage rehearsal dinner (can't leave to pick up her folks coming into JFK, either).

I actually had several weeks where I, and everybody else in EMS Bureau would work a non-requested 6 hours of overtime, 4 of our 5 days on.

(Yeah, I hear the 12 hour and 24 hour tour folks laughing at me, mandated after a measly 8 hour tour? They tried to mandate, by phone, personnel on their days off!)

After a union demonstration in front of FDNY Headquarters, and threat of legal action by the union, they took the new units off line, until after they hired new personnel to "man" them.

[stcommodore]

Obviously a solution that only worked on papar...

I've seen a mandation system at the service I did my paramedic time at and probaby only saw one or two people ever get 'mandated.' Usually someone picked up the shift or someone on that night took the day to be off for the next shift. But clearly the goverment can find ways (good or bad) to pay for and expand Emergency Services when needed.