National healthcare for all

[Dustdevil]

Do the Iraqi people feel liberated?

Yes, they do! Have you been to Iraq? Then STFU.

What ticked me off were Dust and reaper's posts, which both seem to assume that the US is the best thing that happened to the world since sliced bread.

You sound like one of those volunteer EMTs whining how upset they are that RNs don't respect them as equals. And what ticks me off is that you ASSume that you have a clue about the country I have lived half a century in just because you took a vacation here. You’re making a real case here for those people who say a college education doesn’t make you smarter.

Hasn't the rest of the world made it quite clear, that we do not want or need the American "big daddy"?

I suppose you just misread what I was saying. "Big Daddy" is not a reference to the U.S. Big Daddy is a reference to ANY government, including your own. If you need YOUR "Big Daddy" to manage your simple daily life for you, I fully support your right to have that. But on my shores, I am happy living my own life without the government telling me how. I don't need them to feed me, clothe me, educate me, or wipe my arse for me. You know why Americans are proud? Because that is the natural consequence of being a free adult who takes care of himself without being babysat by "Big Daddy." A certain pride comes from self-sufficiency that I suppose you will never feel or understand. It's your loss, not ours.

This "we do what we want" is just anarchy, but if you want it like that, that is of course your business.

Are you daft? How the hell do you get "anarchy" out of this? The Constitution -- the Law of our Land -- says this is how it will be. It's not random radicals screaming in the streets like in half the countries of Europia. It's the established law for 231 years that people will be allowed to live their own lives with minimal interference from the federal government. That's how we wanted it. That's how we like it. You don't like it? Eff off! Nobody asked if you liked it.

I realise we shouldn't force other cultures to evolve.

If our culture ever "evolves" to me paying forty-five percent of my wages in taxes to the federal government, for them to spend on farking pointless nonsense that I neither want nor need, there will be anarchy of epic proportions! We have a long, proud history of refusing to bend over and take it up the arse in the name of "evolution." And approval from Iceland of our way of life is the very last thing that anybody here gives a rats arse about.

What really ticked me off here was the assumption that the US had succeeded and everyone else failed - and that everyone wants to go to America...while that is true for Mexico, that is not true for the rest of the world.

You're in denial. There is not a country on earth that doesn't have thousands upon thousands of its citizens trying right this very moment to immigrate to the U.S. That is because in every country, no matter how suppressed their people are, there are people who aspire to be more. To live their own lives. To make their own success. To have the freedom to invest in themselves and reap the dividends of personal commitment and personal responsibility.

Personal responsibility: that's the key term here. I know it's foreign to you, so look it up.

From what I can gather, it is the general consensus in Europe that your actions there are a serious threat to political stability in the region, especially recent developments in the US installing long-range missile launchers there.

There are already long-range missile launchers there, genius. Ours are to counter theirs. Even without our missiles, you have missiles. You just have nothing to deter their use. Now they do. But yeah... personally I say screw Europia. Let them get marched upon again. You can bet I won't be pushing for American intervention when it happens. We shouldn't have intervened the last two times, as far as I am concerned.

So, as a European, and as a citizen of a country occupied by the US military for over 50 years, I may be a little sensitive to the good ol' American arrogance.

Were you drunk the day in history class when they told you why American troops are there?

Ha! You're just pissed that our soldiers take your women. And we do it very easily too.

By the way, I thought you said you weren't going to comment here anymore. Liar.

[kristo]

First of all, I'll put in a "disclaimer" of sorts. I have no interest in making this some kind of weird anti-America campaign. I'm sorry this thread got so ugly, let's try and clean it up, shall we?

Excellent. We'd like our money back now, please.

And since you don't need us, we'll also be closing our borders.

With concrete walls.

Have a nice day. Y'all play nice now. No more Uncle Sam to fight your wars for you.

Aren't your borders semi-closed now, anyway? 8) We really don't need you to fight "our" wars, but it would still be a pity if you closed yourself off. You've got a lot to offer the world.

It's just that not everything that comes out of the US is as good for the world. And because you're the last remaining superpower, you have the power to piss a lot of people off when you do something, especially if it involves military actions.

[kristo]

First of all, I'll put in a "disclaimer" of sorts. Laughing I have no interest in making this some kind of weird anti-America campaign. I'm sorry this thread got so ugly, let's try and clean it up, shall we?

Wow, you guys (As in members of the EU) have really short memories...

Americans killed in WW1 - 100,000

Americans wounded in WW1- 200,00

Total Troops Deployed - 4.5 million

Total American Costs - $33 Billion (1917 dollars)

American participation in WW1 was heavily criticised. It began in 1917 (one year left of the war) and some say it was just done for their own gain. Regardless of whether or not that is true, the American public was quite convinced that this was not the way to go, until the attack on Pearl Harbour in 1941, of course. Prior to that, president Roosevelt had tried to get congress to allow him to interfere with the war in Europe, but unsuccessfully. Instead, he supported Britain financially (Lend-lease program). When Japan declared war on the US, so did Germany.

Americans killed WW2 - 400,00

Americans wounded WW2 - 650,000

Total Troops Deployed - 16,000,000

Total American Costs - $360 billion (1945 dollars)

Marshall Plan - $13 billion (1945 dollars) Iceland received $43 million, just for the record.

In this case, the Americans were asked to help (by Churchill, who was actually a personal friend of Roosevelt's and half-American, his mother was born in Brooklyn, NY). It is interesting to note, however, that Germany did declare war on the US, not the opposite way. I'm fairly glad the US came and helped the UK out there, though. You did play a crucial role in actually liberating a lot of countries in continental Europe, France for example (didn't you kind of owe the French one, though, after their help in the Revolutionary war? That help nearly bankrupted the French state and led to a bloody revolution there, as the king was unable to feed his citizens).

The Marshall plan was well received here. In fact, I would go as far as saying it made Iceland what it is today. Prior to that, we lived in houses made of stones and grass and really had nothing. So that worked out well for us.

However. It must be noted that the Marshall plan was not charity. It was a genius plan to repel communism. Also, it wasn't exactly direct money. It was more like store-credit with American companies, which helped make new markets for American export after a devastating war (markets that kept on buying after the Marshall plan expired). It was a win-win plan, everyone won. Except the commies, of course, but that's their loss.

Half a million dead, almost a million wounded and over 20 million sent to fight wars started by Europeans to free Europeans from tyranny. $400 billions dollars of American cash spent on these wars. Damn if we could have put that money in an interest bearing checking account we would have enough now to pay for Worldwide healthcare.

:wink:

True (but are you sure there's not a part of those numbers that come from the US-Japan part, in which European nations also helped? The UK, Australia, and even my native New Zealand lost a lot of people in India, Singapore, etc., fighting the Japs, which could, under the same reasoning, be called helping the US out...

Oh and let's talk about the "occupation" of Iceland by the U.S. I am assuming you are speaking of the NATO bases in Iceland.

[kristo]

First of all, I'll put in a "disclaimer" of sorts. Laughing I have no interest in making this some kind of weird anti-America campaign. I'm sorry this thread got so ugly, let's try and clean it up, shall we? In this post, I've neglected answering a few points for the very purpose of keeping the peace...

[Dustdevil]

Present-day Eastern Europe does not need American military intervention! The Russians have been quiet for 20 years, but all of a sudden, there are new American long-range missile sites right under their nose! They got offended and now they've started to send military aircraft for "training purposes" to Scandinavia and even to our coasts in Iceland. Let Putin run his own country and please stop throwing paper balls at him. He won't stand for it, and the consequences will be disastrous for us all.

Translation:

Ooooh! Please don't aggravate the big bully over there in the corner! He might get mad and come beat us all up! We're hoping that if we just smile and tiptoe past him lightly, he'll let us all live! Of course, if that doesn't work, we'll be crying for you to come bail us out again, so don't stray too far. :roll:

Twenty years, eh? Isn't that just about the interval that passed between WWI and WWII, Mr. History? I wish I could have heard you in the late 30s begging everybody to be nice to Hitler so he wouldn't unleash any "disastrous consequences."

[kristo]

Translation:

Ooooh! Please don't aggravate the big bully over there in the corner! He might get mad and come beat us all up! We're hoping that if we just smile and tiptoe past him lightly, he'll let us all live! Of course, if that doesn't work, we'll be crying for you to come bail us out again, so don't stray too far.

:roll:

Really, dust? Please read the PM I just sent you - I really am trying to mend things here, I'm not interested in taking part in a flame war*.

* For those who don't know: flame war: n.

[common] (var.: flamewar) An acrimonious dispute, especially when conducted on a public electronic forum such as Usenet.

[Scaramedic]

Umm ok. First off I think it might just translation probs here but...

American participation in WW1 was heavily criticised. It began in 1917 (one year left of the war) and some say it was just done for their own gain. Regardless of whether or not that is true, the American public was quite convinced that this was not the way to go, until the attack on Pearl Harbour in 1941, of course.

...Pearl Harbor was WW2, not WW1.

Then there is...

I'm fairly glad the US came and helped the UK out there, though. You did play a crucial role in actually liberating a lot of countries in continental Europe, France for example (didn't you kind of owe the French one, though, after their help in the Revolutionary war? Smile That help nearly bankrupted the French state and led to a bloody revolution there, as the king was unable to feed his citizens).

Fairly crucial role, hmm Ok. I'm sure Britain would have been able to pull off D-Day with the help of Canada, driven the Nazi's out of France, stormed across Europe and over the Rhine. Of course that would have caused the Russians to issue orders to pull troops from the Eastern front to cover the Atlantic Wall. Thereby causing the German offensive into Russia to fail. Of course, hell why did we even go? Why did we leave 6,000 dead on that beach? You guys could have handled it.

We payed the French back in WW1, thank you though.

American base with other countries soldiers, kind of like in Iraq now.

"This is not entirely accurate. Iceland was invaded and taken over by British troops in 1940. It didn't take much fighting, but they were resisted slightly by Icelandic police, until the Icelandic government ordered them to stand down and the Icelandic public to co-operate with the Brits. The words chosen for that statement were remarkably similar to the Danish statement when Germany did the same thing there. Wink

The Brits took over all communications with the country, arrested several people, including all German citizens and especially the German ambassador, whose diplomatic immunity was ignored. Over the next few years, several reporters were arrested and transported to the UK for writing news that the new "administration" didn't like, and so were a few members of parliament that they didn't like. In 1941, the Iceland government, minus any parliament members in British prisons, agreed to sign a document in which they requested the American military to replace to British one, after president Roosevelt had refused Churchill to take this over unless the Icelanders wanted it themselves (a point for the US! Laughing - but was this what Icelanders really wanted?)"

Let me see, yep Britain, Britain, Britain oh wait there is the US at the request of your people. Yeah, I would say with what was going on in Europe they were damned happy we gave them a choice and got rid of the Brits.

I'm assuming you're referring to the Danish, not the Dutch.

Yeah my bad on that one sorry.

Putin was insane before we even thought of putting weapons in Europe to protect them from Iranian missiles. He has been steering Russia back to the old way for years now. Lucky for you most of their fleet is rusting away. Oh by the way, the reason we were in Iceland to begin with is it was a great place to monitor subs. Conversely it would have been a great place for the USSR to place missiles, hence the NATO (U.S. if you like) presence. If you think the Soviets wouldn't have taken advantage of that just look at Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Your welcome.

By the way the French are the ones who are stirring up the most shit with Iran not us.

Submarines attacks: 110 deaths

Mines: 13 deaths

Ships sunk by running them over: 10 deaths

Air raids: 3 deaths

Various: 6 deaths

These were civilian deaths, not combat deaths. They don't count. I guarantee we lost more than that from car crashes during blackout drills.

The Icelandic nation at the time was 121,474 people. We lost 139 - 209 lives, depending on how you calculate it. That's 0.12 - 0.17 percent. All of those people were civilians. The Americans lost 0.2% of their population. We didn't lose quite as many lives as you did, but almost (proportionally). To give you an idea of how much 0.17% is, that's like the American nation would lose over 51 million civilians today in getting supplies to a country in trouble. So maybe our seats weren't that cheap after all?

Our pop. at the time was a 130 million. We sent off 20 million to battle. If you consider the children, elderly, and women in that population you will see that we sent a majority of our men to war. I am sorry for you civilian deaths, but you were neutral which is fine. Hell even our seats were cheap compared to the European countries decimated by the war. 6 million Jews killed, including members of my family, somewhere around 40 million civilian dead. To be honest neither of us has room to bitch on that front.

Look Kristo, you have a wonderful country, I someday hope to visit. Yet the world does not turn it's eyes to you when there is trouble. Your right we are the last superpower, and I'll bet you most Americans would love to let you have that title. Are you willing? Gotta Navy we'll sell you real cheap. Great planes, tanks, guns rifles, socks and boots. Take the damn burden off of us were sick of it.

Peace,

Marty

P.S. CAN WE PLEASE GET BACK ON TOPIC!!!!!

[Scaramedic]

Addendum: I just finally finished typing a 10,000 word essay for Psych. During breaks I would pop over and post answers on this post. It's 1:55 here, I have no feeling in my wrists except pain. I am going to bed.

Peace, Love and healthcare for all.

I'm out.

Marty

[kristo]

...Pearl Harbor was WW2, not WW1.

Yes, I know, but that attack was what changed the public opinion in the US about internationalism.

Then there is...

[Dustdevil]

So, I'm not being treated as an equal by Americans because I have less education, am stupid and am disrespecting others in my field by my very existence? Judging from your other posts, I'm assuming I'm reading this wrong. Could you please clarify?

Sure. You are wrong. Thanks to you, this discussion has nothing to do with EMS, or even healthcare. I was comparing attitudes, not levels of medical education.

Yes, I know, but that attack was what changed the public opinion in the US about internationalism.

Uhhh... no. Apparently nobody bothered to teach you why the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

Well, he is very popular with his people and he certainly hasn't done anything offensive in his foreign policy.

Hitler was twice as popular as Putin. So what? And just because he hasn't offended you personally does not mean his foreign policy has not been offensive. Where the hell do you get your news from, Pravda?

He actually offered to join the US financially on this missile project if they would move it to another former Soviet republic, equally well strategically for Iran, but less so for Russia. How about that for a compromise?

And why exactly do you think he did that? Cuz he's just a really nice guy?

I still maintain that the American naval base in Keflavík served primarily American interests, not Icelandic ones.

And that hurts you how?

I just can't agree with you that in all cases when the US has intervened that it has been because it was requested. In recent cases, it has even been against the will of the UN.

The UN is always right? Interesting theory! I challenge you to stand behind it. The UN does not govern us. The UN is a forum for dialogue. Just like this one right here, not all dialogue is productive, constructive, or in my best interests. If you allow the UN to govern you or your country, you're a slave and an idiot.